The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:29, with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

Welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in a hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and these are noted on your agenda.

1. Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

Item 1 is questions to the Minister for Climate Change, and the first question is from Peter Fox and to be answered by the Deputy Minister. Peter Fox.

Flooding on the A4042

Peter Fox AS: 1. What action is the Welsh Government taking to reduce the risk of flooding on the A4042 at Llanellen bridge? OQ57710

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. In recent years, we've improved the existing drainage at Llanellen to help with quickening recovery and the reopening time frame for the A4042 in the event of flooding. This year, we will also be conducting a Welsh transport appraisal guidance stage 1 to identify longer term options to help address the flooding issues.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Minister, for the response and, yes, the A4042, of which Llanellen bridge is a part, is a trunk road vital to the movement of vehicles across Monmouthshire. It's even more important to enable patients now to access the Grange University Hospital from north Gwent and south Powys.
Now, as I know, Minister, you're aware, flooding at Llanellen bridge has been a perennial problem. Indeed, the bridge was closed yet again, due to flooding as a result of recent storms that hit the UK just recently. Not only does this result in disruption for residents, but it also creates longer journey times, as I mentioned, for ambulances to the Grange and, for medical emergencies such as that, a delay can have serious consequences.
I welcome the WelTAG process, which I think is going to be happening tomorrow, and I'll be joining that as a stakeholder and I do welcome that. Therefore, can I ask if the Welsh Government is committed to finding a permanent solution to the problem and that the issue will be swiftly tackled once potential mitigation measures have been identified? I say that because WelTAG processes can take many years, and the importance of that needs to be addressed pretty quickly.

Lee Waters AC: Well, yes, as the Member notes, the bridge at Llanellen is a recognised flood-sensitivity site and does sometimes close during storm events or heavy rainfall. The situation has improved there after drainage work was carried out and the road has now opened quicker than previously because of that work.
The WelTAG process, as you know, is meant to be an open-minded process—it's not meant to start with an outcome in mind. And that's one of the problems we've seen consistently with the way it works, and that's one of the changes we want to bring about—to identify transport problems and work through solutions. But, as you say, the workshop is beginning tomorrow, so let's see where that process takes us.
We do recognise, of course, that, with increasing flooding and wild weather as a result of climate change, we're going to see more storm events and more infrastructure vulnerable to the effects of the weather. And I'm sure Members will have noted the report on Monday from the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which was a sobering and alarming read, and it told us the situation with climate change was worse than we thought and that there is a rapidly narrowing window of opportunity to build a more climate-resilient society. And one of the questions we have to ask is how we protect our infrastructure in such a context. We have a resilient roads fund this year of £18.5 million. We've asked the National Infrastructure Commission, as part of the partnership agreement with Plaid Cymru, to assess how to minimise flood impact on infrastructure, and the roads review is also looking at the role of maintenance and of infrastructure to deal with the changing climate.

Transport Infrastructure

Jack Sargeant AC: 2. How is the Welsh Government improving transport infrastructure in Alyn and Deeside? OQ57715

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. Our multimillion-pound north Wales metro programme will transform rail, bus and active travel services across the area. I have also announced a north Wales transport commission that will develop a pipeline of transport schemes for north Wales, including Alyn and Deeside.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for that response, and, of course, we await the outcome of the roads review you mentioned in the previous question and the decision on the red route in Deeside. Now, of course, the red route was conceived to reduce air pollution in recognition that residents need solutions to this very dangerous problem. If, for example, the red route were not to proceed, the expectation from me and the residents of Alyn and Deeside is that the money allocated to it should be spent tackling air pollution in Deeside, as I believe the case was when the M4 relief road was decided against in Newport. So, can I ask you, therefore, Deputy Minister, what consideration have you given to ring-fencing this money for the area where it originally was allocated to, to be spent on new projects that will help address this very Deeside-specific issue?

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. As you say, the roads review is looking at the red route, along with 54 other schemes, and it's doing that methodically, and it will report in the summer. So, we shouldn't second-guess what the outcome of that process will be, because I'm assuming there will be road schemes going ahead, but I'm also assuming that a large number of them will not be. So, it's entirely reasonable to anticipate what would happen in that scenario. I think I'd just point to him, on the funding point of view, that this is estimated to be a £300 million scheme; we don't have £300 million sitting in our budget, waiting to be spent on this scheme. Indeed, the whole point of the Burns review into the M4 was to find the solution that cost half the price of the proposed M4 and which still addressed the congestion issue. So, what I'm hoping, through the roads review and the Burns commission for north Wales, is that we'll identify transport solutions to problems that are compatible with our climate change commitments, as well as addressing local transport problems, but we need to do it in a way that makes best use of the funding we have available, bearing in mind that I was just telling the Chamber about the grave situation we have with climate change.
Now, there is significant investment going into north Wales, into public transport improvements. From this May, we'll have an increasing number of services on the borderlands line, between Wrexham and Bidston, to two per hour. We'll have a new hourly service between Liverpool and Llandudno from December 2023, and, from December 2024, a new service every two hours between Liverpool and Cardiff, and an hourly service between Shrewsbury and Liverpool. So, I think, after a long and patient wait for the people of north Wales, the infrastructure investment we're putting in is now bearing fruit. The key task for the Burns commission is to stitch that together, because we want people to feel that the easiest way to get around is public transport for the majority of journeys. That's not the reality for most people at the moment, and our exam question is: how do we get that to change?

Mark Isherwood AC: The prospectus issued in 2016 by the Growth Track 360 partnership—a cross-border alliance of business, political and public sector leaders, including the North Wales Economic Ambition Board and the Mersey Dee Alliance—stated that being able to link into HS2 would reduce congestion, improve business logistics and attract investment and jobs. And in January, the Growth Track 360 partnership welcomed the introduction of the UK High Speed Rail (Crewe-Manchester) Bill, which will facilitate the construction of HS2, where confirmed plans include the new junction north of Crewe station that they had called for. In fact, their vice-chair, leader of Flintshire County Council, said,
'Our industrial, commercial and tourism destinations would receive a tremendous boost through enhanced direct rail connectivity with London, Manchester and Manchester Airport provided by HS2 if our local lines are upgraded at the same time.'
But when the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on Mersey Dee north Wales raised a similar issue in the House of Commons—the Vale of Clwyd MP, Dr James Davies—he got quite an encouraging response from the relevant UK Minister, who said that they would engage positively with the union connectivity review, which included connections between Wales and Northern Ireland, published last November. So, what engagement are you having with all these various agencies, to capitalise on the opportunities that they're all seeking, and the general welcome they've all given to January's announcement?

Lee Waters AC: Well, I was pleased that Growth Track 360 warmly welcomed the announcement of the north Wales transport commission, and that responds both to the recommendation of the roads review and to the union connectivity review by Sir Peter Hendy, which called for a multimodal study across north Wales. Obviously, part of that work will be looking at how rail services in the north can connect through to HS2, if and when it arrives, though I think we should be all concerned about the lack of investment in Wales by the UK Government on rail and the lack of a Barnett consequential from the money from HS2. I note he's optimistic in pointing to the benefits to the north of having some connectivity into a line in England, but there is no benefit directly for passengers in Wales, or for infrastructure in Wales, and that should concern us all, across all parties.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. First of all this afternoon, the Conservative spokesperson, Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you, Presiding Officer.Deputy Minister, last week, the economy Minister unveiled the Welsh Government's national space strategy, outlining its ambition to achieve a 5 per cent share of the UK space sector, which would equate to £2 billion a year for the Welsh economy. The strategy is focused on growing the potential of current and future developments in the space sector here in Wales, including space launch training and experience capability, together with the testing and evaluation of new, greener propulsion technologies at Llanbedr. It's clear this announcement calls into question the decision of your roads review panel to cancel the proposed Llanbedr bypass, wasting £1.7 million of taxpayers' money in the process. As the criteria influencing the decision have now surely changed, will you now agree to reconsider this matter and ask the panel to review its decision in view of the potential economic benefits for the area and the whole of Wales?

Lee Waters AC: Well, again, I will just tell Natasha Asghar what I said to the Chamber at the beginning: the panel report on climate change that was published on Monday said the situation facing all of us is worse than they thought—it is at the upper end of the projections of the impact of global warming and the catastrophic impact that will have on our economy and our society. It said we have already been impacted, changes locked in, and there is now a rapidly narrowing window of opportunity to build a climate-resilient society. I think we should all take that seriously. We can't de-link these things because we want to score political points about a different issue. The roads review panel, as part of its criteria, looked at the impact of climate change on transport and the pipeline of projects we had, and concluded the Llanbedr scheme was not consistent with the Wales transport strategy and was not consistent with achieving net zero. Now, I don't think that can be lightly set aside.
If you read the panel report on the airfield, it did show, in terms of access to that site, there were other options, and we have committed to work with Gwynedd council to explore those options to see what can be done. But we still come back to the fundamental point: climate change has profound and far-reaching consequences for us all, and we need to start reflecting that in the decisions we make. It's no good the Conservatives signing up to targets when every single time a decision is made as a consequence of those targets, they call for a different approach. It's not consistent.

Natasha Asghar AS: Okay. Thank you, Deputy Minister. I can assure you we are all concerned about climate change. There's no denying that, and I think my colleagues across this bench, and even in Westminster, will agree with me on that. However, having seen the information that was released by the Minister for Economy, it was clear that some of the areas that were in question are protected, so that causes a concern for us as to how this is actually going to be made a reality.
Coming to my second question, I've already mentioned the cancellation of the Llanbedr bypass wasting £1.7 million of taxpayers' money on a few occasions now in this Chamber. Since then, the roads review panel has cancelled plans to remove the roundabouts at junctions 15 and 16 on the A55, wasting nearly £9 million. So, Deputy Minister, so far your policy has poured £10.5 million of taxpayers' money down the drain, and there are still more than 50 projects to improve Wales's road infrastructure under review at present. I've asked the question before and make no apology for asking it again, as I do not believe that the information is readily available to me or others. So, in the interests of transparency and accountability, if the roads review panel were to cancel each and every single one of the projects currently under review, what would be the total amount of money already spent that would be lost? Thanks.

Lee Waters AC: Well, the roads review panel hasn't reached a conclusion yet, other than on two schemes it was asked to fast track. On both of those schemes, it's published the rationale for why, on balance, those were the best decisions to go forward. Clearly, schemes have had money invested in them. Many of the investments in the A55 junctions, for example, as we've already discussed in the Chamber but I'm happy to repeat it, were on studies that would be still be useful to the Burns commission in the north for its future work. So, it's not wasted; it has been redirected.
But, at some point, we need to pull a handbrake on schemes, because the logic of her position is we keep investing in schemes because some investment's been put in regardless of their impact on carbon emissions, regardless of their impact on air quality, regardless of their impact on congestion and climate change. And I don't think that is consistent with what the science is telling us, for needing to look afresh and to take different action. At the heart of this is that all of us have to confront the fact the science is telling us we need to change direction, and changing direction has consequences.

Natasha Asghar AS: Okay. Deputy Minister, you were recently reported as saying that electric buses—this will be something that I know you'll enjoy [Laughter.]—should be made in Wales instead of being imported from China, expressing the wish to see an electric bus factory opened here to create greener jobs. In response, Andy Palmer, the chief executive of Switch Mobility, one of the handful of UK-based companies already making electric buses, said he had approached the Welsh Government to build a factory but had received no traction. Recently, electric buses have been bought from China by bus companies in Newport and Cardiff, which is great news. Bus operators have claimed the plan to move the whole of Wales's bus fleet to zero-emission vehicles by 2035 needs a nationwide funding plan, but Wales does not have a Government-run fund to help them with the cost of green vehicles infrastructure, unlike England and Scotland. John Dowie, the director of partnerships of First UK, which owns First Cymru, said it's time for Wales to set up its own scheme that's suited to Welsh circumstances and drive its own agenda, not just wait to pick up the crumbs from England. Deputy Minister, when will you bring forward a funding scheme to support the transition to electric buses in Wales, as they have done in England and Scotland? Thank you.

Lee Waters AC: Well, as Natasha Asghar has already very generously noted, we are investing in the transition to electric buses, particularly in Cardiff and Newport, where they have municipally owned bus companies. I want to do two things to make systemic change, rather than simply making announcements that please the industry. The first is to design a bus system that is coherent and where investment from Wales doesn't leak out. Now, at the moment, we have a fragmented commercial privatised system, where private bus companies are expecting the taxpayer to fund their capital, and then they'd pocket the profit and then don't give us services that are coherent and give people a chance to shift transport modes. That needs fixing, and that's what's going to be addressed in the forthcoming bus White Paper.
Secondly, I want a domestic industry to produce electric buses, and I think there is an economic opportunity for Wales. Rather than investing significant sums—hundreds of millions of pounds—to buy Chinese buses there's a chance to develop a Welsh and British bus industry. You mentioned an investor there. What we don't want is simply to fall back into the inward investment model. There's a chance to build local companies here; build the missing middle that we've often talked about. I set up a taskforce, led by James Davies, the chair and chief exec of Industry Wales, to look at how we can aggregate demand. At the moment, there are a lot of order books coming through the public sector. If we bring them together, pool our orders, there's a chance for a Welsh industry to emerge, and that's the work that we're doing.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you very much, Llywydd. The Wales Co-operative Centre has just released a report that calls on the Government to introduce a community ownership and empowerment Act to assist local community groups to develop permanent affordable housing in their communities. The report demonstrates how the current housing system, controlled by the open market, is failing people and communities in Wales. As house prices rise significantly across Wales and there's a lack of real affordable housing for local people, then the policies of the co-operative centre can play an important role as we look to ensure locally owned community housing. The report calls on the Government to establish a commission to encourage innovative thinking on local ownership of land and assets in Wales, to introduce a local ownership and empowerment Act, to develop a database or register of land ownership, to establish a financial support fund for housing projects that are led on a community level, and to develop a formal process for transferring community assets.
Does the Minister agree that such proposals would benefit the people of Wales? And will she consider including the recommendations of the co-operative centre as part of the Government's legislative programme? And I hope you would also agree with me that the ability of communities to to deliver housing commitments is dependent on the availability of land that will enable groups to build community housing. So, what steps is the Government taking to register land ownership and to identify land that is appropriate for developing community needs?

Julie James AC: Apologies, I lost a little bit of the translation there, but I got the gist of it, I think, so, forgive me if I haven't got a nuance, especially right at the end there. I don't know why it suddenly cut out for some reason. So, we absolutely welcome the work done by the co-operative centre. We absolutely agree that community-led housing is very much part of the housing solution in Wales and absolutely will contribute towards the delivery of our 20,000 social homes target. We've already reaffirmed that through the programme for government: our commitment to support co-operative housing, community-led initiatives and community land trusts. And I'm very pleased to be able to say that, just last week, we've been able to increase the grant to the co-op centre in order to facilitate a lot of this work. So, really pleased to have been able to do that.
The absolute core principle, as Mabon says, is to enable people to take more control of how their housing is delivered and managed. So, our support through the Communities Creating Homes programme, which is delivered by the Wales Co-operative Centre, has engaged and supported 64 groups since the start of the programme, in 2019, so far. There are also a number of opportunities available at the moment, particularly in rural communities, and I am pleased the current programme for support has influenced policies, including our Nest scheme, and it links to wider Welsh Government policies and programmes to provide real opportunities to overcome some of the barriers facing community-led groups.
But I agree that more needs to be done to facilitate this and to embed it, if you like, in the culture that we want to have. We're doing a piece of ongoing work to explore what additional support is needed through a future community-led housing programme. We've also been in discussions with the Wales Co-operative Centre regarding funding for community groups for several months now, and I'm looking forward to hearing the outcomes of those discussions as well. We meet very regularly—I meet with them, and my officials meet very regularly—with the Wales Co-operative Centre.
I welcome the report, but some of it—. Unfortunately, we haven't had an interaction over it yet, so I'll be looking forward to having that interaction. So, for example, it's clearly an expensive duplication of effort for Welsh Government to mimic the work of the UK Land Registry, but there's a real validity in making the available information much more readily accessible to community groups, and we're doing a big piece of work with DataMapWales that will help realise the ambitions laid out in the report for that, for example. There are a number of things where I'll be wanting to go through the report and just point out where we are, where we're happy to accept the recommendation, and where we've already actually taken some steps towards doing what's recommended there.
I'm really happy as well to have been able to facilitate community land trusts and co-operative housing with a registered social landlord partner to access the social housing grant, and I'm sure the Member is aware of the Solva community land trust, which we're looking at as a sort of pilot to see how well that works. We have a number of other groups doing it as well. So, in principle, I completely agree. We need to work through some of the detail to make sure that we've got the best bang for our buck—sorry, a terrible cliche, but you see where I'm going. We're also, as it happens, doing some of it, but not quite in the way the report sets out. So, in principle, we're absolutely on board with that, and I'm really keen to see as large a number of people come together in co-operative housing as we can manage in Wales.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I thank the Minister for that response and, for the record, I'd like to thank Vikki Howells for presenting the report in the cross-party group this morning. There is cross-party support for developing such proposals, and therefore I look forward to seeing the steps that will be taken to that end.
If I could move on to retrofitting, please. Fuel poverty is a huge problem across Wales, as you know, and as a Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd I am aware of the detrimental impact of fuel poverty on communities there. We have the oldest housing stock in western Europe and they are among the least efficient homes in terms of energy. This leads to many people having to choose between heating their homes or eating—a choice that no-one should face. The price of fuel is at its highest and the cap on energy prices is to increase by 54 per cent from 1 April, as you know. Those on a default tariff who pay by direct debit will see an increase of between £693 and £1,971 on average per annum. This will push over 0.25 million people in Wales into fuel poverty.
We need to tackle fuel poverty now, more than ever, by responding to the crisis and improving energy efficiency in homes. It's worth noting too that 10 per cent of carbon emissions in Wales come from residential property, and solving fuel poverty will help us to fight climate change too. The social housing sector will be crucial as we decarbonise our homes and ensure that the economic benefits of doing that remain in Wales. It's a challenge that we need to face over the next 10 years. The Minister will appreciate, of course, that decarbonisation of homes can't be implemented without the right combination of grants, private funding, regulatory standards and a clear road map set out.
The final budget—

A question, please, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I'm coming to it now, thank you for your patience.
The final budget—

It's not endless. [Laughter.]

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: —sets aside an additional £35 million from financial transactions capital to experiment and develop new funding models in order to assist with accelerating the scale and how quickly we can decarbonise housing in Wales. Can the Minister confirm whether the social housing sector will be able to access or benefit from that funding—[Interruption.]

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Later on, maybe. Later on.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: And how will the fund be used in order to accelerate the policy and the funding forthe decarbonisation of housing?

Rhys ab Owen AS: Good question. [Laughter.]

Julie James AC: Yes. I'm very tempted to just say 'yes' and sit down. [Laughter.]
Absolutely, we've already done something in Wales that has not been done in the rest of the UK, and that is, through the Welsh housing quality standard, we've brought all our social housing up to energy performance certificateD, which is a long way up from where it was before. We were repeatedly told that that wouldn't be possible when we started on that journey, so I'm delighted to say that, with one exception, which we've accepted for COVID reasons, everyone else has done it, and that one exception will have finished that process by the end of this year now.
So, we're in discussion with our councils and social landlords already about what the Welsh housing quality standard 2 will look like, and what will be expected, whether we'll be asking them to bring housing up to EPC B or A, what we will do with the housing that can't be brought up to that standard and what other measures can be brought to bear. We're also learning the lessons from the Welsh housing quality standard 1, because for the vast majority of homes it was very successful, but for some homes it was not successful and it led to some problems with condensation and damp, which I know Members will be familiar with, and I certainly am in my own constituency. So, we've learned that lesson. We've put the optimised retrofit programme in place to figure out what each house in Wales actually needs, so what combination of insulation type, tech, roof type and so on is required to get properties up to the highest EPC rating that they can achieve.
We also haven't yet announced the successor to the Arbed scheme. The Arbed scheme was very good for many people in fuel poverty in Wales, because it replaced very inefficient boilers with much more efficient ones, but they were still gas and they were still contributing to carbon, so we don't want to do that, but it's not sufficient to just say, 'We'll give you an air source heat pump,' because, as I've said many times in this Chamber, you may as well be heating the field behind your house for some houses. So, we need that combination.
As we did with the Welsh housing quality standard, we will overskill the workforce through the social housing projects, so that we can then offer grants to people in the private sector, knowing what will suit their type of house and knowing that we will get good value for money. I think I'm about to be asked a question on the order paper by another Member of the Plaid group about some of the issues we've had, and what we are trying to do is learn the lessons there, so that we aren't fitting the wrong type of tech solution to the wrong kind of property. So, these things are always very successful for the vast majority of people who have them, but then we have had problems with some housing, so we're trying to learn those lessons and to make sure that we get the right solution in the right place. So, we'll be shortly announcing the new Welsh housing quality standard to bring that up.
There's a piece of work to do in the private rented sector to make sure that we have the right incentives, so people don't just come out of the sector but bring their houses up to quality, which I've mentioned many times, and there are a range of other things that we can do for owner-occupiers, including using carrots and sticks in the local tax system, which we'll want to bring to the floor of the Senedd.

The Arbed 2 Scheme

Siân Gwenllian AC: 3. Will the Minister provide an update on the Arbed 2 scheme in Arfon? OQ57712

Julie James AC: Diolch, Siân. Seven hundred and forty-two households in Arfon benefited from home energy efficiency improvements under the Arbed 2 scheme, estimated to have saved them on average around £300 on their domestic energy bills annually.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you very much, but you will be aware of the problems that have arisen with the scheme, and I do thank you for your support on this to date. I am currently helping—

I will have to interrupt you there, Siân Gwenllian. We're having some difficulty with the interpretation at the moment—

Julie James AC: It's intermittent. I can hear it sometimes, and not—

Okay, we'll take a technical break in order to sort the—. No, that's absolutely fine. So, we're going to take a short technical break now.

Plenary was suspended at 13:58.
The Senedd reconvened at 13:59, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

Okay, we can restart, and I'll ask Siân Gwenllian to ask her supplementary question to the Minister. Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you very much for your support with this issue, because you will be aware that there have been a number of problems arising in my constituency. I am continuing to assist a number of constituents with requests for compensation from the contractors or the guarantee firms, but none of these cases has successfully reached conclusion as of yet, and there are at least five cases that I'm aware of that face a situation where the construction company and the guarantee firm has gone bust, and therefore there is no compensation for them. Although it's a different scheme that has caused problems in the Maesteg area, I do think that the Welsh Government is going to be assisting constituents in a very similar situation to those in my constituency in Arfon in that particular area. That's a different programme, yes, but the principle is the same, namely that support should be provided where the construction companies and the guarantee firms have gone bust. These were Government programmes; Arbed 2 was a Welsh Government programme, and people participated in the schemes at the recommendation of the Government. So, if people in the Maesteg area are to be given compensation, isn't it fair to expect people in my constituency to be treated equally and that they too should be provided with funding in order to restore their homes?

Julie James AC: Diolch, Siân. I have some sympathy with what you're saying, obviously. What we've been doing, as you know, is working with Fortem Energy Services, the scheme manager for Arbed 2, to review the position of all residents who benefited from the external wall insulation and ensure that they're aware of the process for redress where issues have arisen. Because what we're trying to do is make sure that people do take the routes for redress where they're still available to them. So, we make sure that where the company is still there, if they're at fault in the installation, they pick up the price for that, and similarly with the guarantor.
But, you're quite right; in recognition of the plight of householders elsewhere, for other UK schemes where both the construction company and the guarantor are no longer available because they've gone out of business or for a variety of other complicated reasons, we have agreed to work with the councils there to fund remedial works and some compensations—mostly remedial works, though—for those, as well as in Caerphilly for works at Bryn Carno. I'm more than happy to explore with you whether that would be something we could ask the local council with you to see whether they would be happy to do that. But I can emphasise that we do want people to pursue all of the remedies available to them through the normal routes first, and I know you've been working on that. So, if you want to send me details of that, I'm more than happy to have a conversation with the council and yourself about whether there's anything further we can do.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you to the Member for Arfon for raising this really important question, because like her, residents have been in touch sharing their disaster stories, really, of the scheme in some of their properties. Minister, you highlighted some of the money that has been made available to Bridgend council, for example, and I'd hope that Gwynedd Council would want to work with you and others to support those residents. The question I have is about future schemes. You talked right at the start, I think, about lessons learnt for future schemes. I wonder if you think there's a greater role for councils to play in identifying these properties and supporting home owners for similar schemes in the future.

Julie James AC: I absolutely do think that. One of the issues we've had is where we have had small construction companies that have gone out of business as a result or the guarantor scheme has gone down. So, we'll certainly be looking to explore guarantor schemes where the council acts as the ultimate guarantor, but we want to be very careful that we're not transferring a liability and a risk that properly sits with the private sector into the public sector for no reason, and letting people off the hook. I can't emphasise enough that we want people to pursue the private routes that they have all the way to the end, and we have a number of advice services in place to help people do that. I do think that where people have exhausted that avenue there must be some further avenue for them to get remedial works. I can't emphasise enough, though, that what we're talking about are remedial works, and not compensation, because those are two very different things. So, this is to put your house into the position it ought to have been in if the works were correctly done in the first place, and no doubt there will be some element there about bills and all the rest of it. We're very keen that people are put into that position, because the whole point of the scheme was to put people in a position where their house was well insulated and their fuel bills were reduced, and what we don't want is a house continuing to emit carbon and have high energy costs despite having benefited from one of these schemes. We are absolutely looking exactly at that in designing both the Arbed 2 scheme and a number of other schemes we're looking at.

Question 4, Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you very much. I do apologise, Presiding Officer. Thank you very much. Deputy Minister, if you're serious about combating climate changeand tackling the frequent delays on our railways—

You need to read the question on the order paper first.

Natasha Asghar AS: Sorry. My apologies.

That's okay.

Decarbonisation of Transport

Natasha Asghar AS: 4. What action is the Welsh Government taking to support the decarbonisation of transport? OQ57685

Lee Waters AC: Thank you, and it's nice to hear from you again. 'Llwybr Newydd', the Wales transport strategy, sets out how we will reduce carbon emissions by encouraging more active travel, greater use of public transport as well as supporting the uptake of low-emissions vehicles.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Deputy Minister, if you're serious about combating climate change and tacking the frequent delays on our railways, you must ensure Wales has a modern rail service. However, your own Government's figures show that 69 per cent of Transport for Wales trains are over 30 years old, and 44 per cent are 35 years or older. This presents an opportunity to replace our ageing trains with hydrogen trains, which are currently being trialled in Germany. This zero-emission train emits low levels of noise, with exhausts being only steam and condensed water, enabling us to meet climate change targets. So, can I ask, Deputy Minister, what consideration have you given and what discussions have you had with regard to decarbonising transport in Wales by replacing our ageing trains with hydrogen trains to improve rail services and improve the environment? Thank you.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. I've seen the latest disingenuous social media campaign on this by the Welsh Conservatives about the record over 20 years. Let me just say—[Interruption.] Andrew R.T. Davies says he's telling the people what's right. Well, first of all, you need to explain what the devolution settlement is. I'm happy for my officials to arrange a briefing session for Members of the Conservative Party to explain what is devolved and what is not devolved and how the Barnett formula works. That might be an instructive exercise for them. [Interruption.] Llywydd, it's hard to hear—even through his mask, the Member is still quite loud. [Interruption.] What I don't like is glib social media campaigns that hide the truth, which is that the UKGovernment is underfunding the Welsh passengers. That's the truth, Andrew R.T. Davies. Over the last—[Interruption.] Llywydd, please, this is not a conversation. I've been asked a question, I'm trying to give an answer with a running commentary from the man in the mask. For the last 20 years—

All men are in masks. Let's stop the references to masks, please, and let's allow the Deputy Minister to answer the question that was asked of him.

Lee Waters AC: Over the last 20 years, Llywydd, for 12 of which the Conservatives have been in power in the UK, where rail infrastructure is not devolved, Wales has received less than 2 per cent of the £102 billion that the UK Government has spent on rail enhancement. We have 20 per cent of the level crossings across England and Wales, we have 11 per cent of the stations, we have 11 per cent of the rail track, we have 5 per cent of the population, and yet we only get 2 per cent of the funding. Forty-one per cent of the rail track in England is electrified, 2 per cent of the rail track in Wales is electrified. What's made it worse is that the Department for Transport comparability factor used for Barnett formula calculations for Wales has dropped from 89 per cent to 36 per cent. This means there's less money for Wales, despite significant increases in rail spending for England. That is fundamentally wrong, something that the Conservatives on the Welsh affairs select committee have recognised, and in a cross-party effort have said the UK Government needs to make sure that HS2 spending is Barnettised properly across the UK, and Wales gets its 5 per cent share. I've heard nothing from the Conservative benches, despite me asking several times for a cross-party effort on that, and I would still welcome it, instead of making cheap shots and not directing blame where blame is. [Interruption.] Llywydd, it is an unacceptable intervention from the Conservative benches, and it's a shame I have to draw attention to it. Despite that, we are investing £800 million on a new fleet of trains that will serve 95 per cent of passenger journeys across Wales from 2024. The first of those are already being tested, and will begin serving passengers in north Wales this year.

Vikki Howells AC: Deputy Minister, as you know, a key element of the south Wales metro, funded by a Welsh Labour Government, will be the introduction of cleaner, greener, environmentally friendly electric tram-trains on the core Valley lines, including between Aberdare, in my own constituency, and the capital. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact that these trains will have on reducing our carbon emissions?

Lee Waters AC: A modern metro system is an integral part of a joined-up public transport system. It's a part, it's only a part, and there needs to be other parts as well. We need to integrate the bus services, which are the workhorse of the public transport system and carry the majority of people, along with active travel for that final bit of the journey. We know that over half of all car journeys are under five miles. These are currently being driven, clearly, and they could be done by foot and by bike. A system that links all these up into a modern metro system has significant potential, along with behaviour change interventions, to achieve modal shift, which is part of our transport strategy and part of our net-zero plan. The vision of the metro is to provide a turn-up-and-go service. People will do the easiest thing to do. Currently, we have designed a system where the easiest thing to do is to drive, and we need to change that so the easiest thing to do is to use public transport and active travel. The investment we're seeing in the south Wales metro, which is the largest civil engineering project of its kind in Wales at the moment—over the next few years we'll begin to see the manifestation of that in a major way—will be a significant step forward alongside the other measures that we're working on.

Carbon Emissions

Cefin Campbell MS: 5. What support does the Welsh Government plan to give to companies in Pembrokeshire to help them reduce their carbon emissions? OQ57722

Julie James AC: Diolch, Cefin. The Welsh Government offers a wide range of support to help businesses reduce their environmental impact. This includes our Business Wales resource efficiency advisers, who, since 2016, have supported 170 Pembrokeshire businesses in improving their environmental sustainability strategies.

Cefin Campbell MS: Thank you very much, Minister. A few weeks ago, I had the pleasure of meeting the port authority in Milford Haven, and had a very beneficial meeting about their plans for the future. It emerged during that meeting that as Wales seeks to increase its efforts to meet its net-zero targets while taking great advantage of the green growth opportunities, it's evident that the main oil and gas employers in Pembrokeshire need to transform from their traditional sectors in order to reduce their carbon emissions and develop new green industries around the port, for example, which sustains 4,000 good jobs locally. So, as well as the Pembroke Dock marine project, which is part of the Swansea bay city deal, as you know, will you outline whether the Welsh Government is ready to invest further, and directly, in some of the technologies, such as hydrogen and offshore wind and carbon capture schemes, in order to provide green jobs in the Pembrokeshire area and unlock possible opportunities worth £5 billion for the region and for Wales?

Julie James AC: Yes, absolutely. I'm very happy to do just that, because we're very keen to unlock those green jobs. You will know that our Net Zero Wales plan highlights how we're looking to reduce emissions whilst delivering those wider benefits that you've just outlined. At this point in time we've provided £6 million of environmental protection scheme grant support to Valero, to assist its decarbonisation efforts. That's locked £120 million of investment in the installation of a cogen plant to reduce emissions and take them off grid. We've provided a raft of innovation support, including £100,000 to pump prime the Milford Haven Energy Kingdom project development, which has leveraged in £4.5 million of UKRI funding. As you said, Cefin Campbell, Pembrokeshire businesses play an important role in the south Wales industrial cluster. One of those businesses, RWE, has launched a net-zero centre to maximise the potential of hydrogen, floating offshore wind and carbon capture, and I was very pleased to speak at the ports conference highlighting their efforts. The Welsh Government is funding a £100,000 phase 2 feasibility study for the supply of green hydrogen into Pembrokeshire and Milford Haven, using the ERM Dolphyn offshore wind floating hydrogen production technology.
These companies are all key to the Celtic sea cluster and our emphasis on the offshore renewable industry. We've also got the decarbonisation and COVID challenge fund open to food and drink businesses, so outside of the energy business itself, to seek to aid recovery within the Welsh food and drink sector, which has been adversely affected by the pandemic. We also offer a range of general business advice, information and signposting, as well as specialist strands of advice such as resource efficiency and signposting on green policies to reduce carbon emissions across Wales through Business Wales, and a number of Pembrokeshire businesses have got in touch with us over that. And the last one to just highlight is the Milford Haven Energy Kingdom project in Pembrokeshire, which is that £4.5 million project, which shows the vital role hydrogen can play in a decarbonised energy future. I just wanted to highlight that one point, because that's the key—the transfer over from fossil fuels to a different kind of technology that protects the very highly skilled jobs that are part of that Pembrokeshire cluster.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Minister, earlier this year I had the pleasure of visiting the National House Building Councilaward-winning Pludds Meadow development in Laugharne, in my constituency of Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, a site operated by Salem Construction, who are producing high-quality, energy-efficient homes on the outskirts of one of Carmarthenshire's most famous towns. The builders had a real desire to minimise their carbon footprint, using local staff and items such as air source heat pumps to heat their homes. Will you outline what support the Welsh Government is providing to businesses such as Salem Construction to help reduce their carbon emissions even further, both through the way in which their businesses are run and by continuing to produce homes that emit a small carbon footprint? Diolch.

Julie James AC: Yes, we absolutely welcome the move by a large number of small and medium-sized producers right across Wales to low-carbon housing. We will also be bringing forward changes to our building regulations—my colleague Lee Waters will be bringing forward changes to the building regulations to make sure that the building regulations for everyone are at that sort of standard, and I'm very happy to have the way led for us by a number of SME companies, such as the one you mentioned there.
We provide a wide range of general business advice through Business Wales, as I've just said in answer to Cefin Campbell, which includes resource efficiency, support on green policies to reduce emissions and so on. We also are very happy to work with any green housing supplier to help us use them to build our social housing and to build out mixed-tenure estates so that we have similar housing right across the piece, so that we don't have people going into fuel poverty in the future. And we also are very keen—. Again, the Deputy Minister and I have a construction forum, which is a housing sub-group, and we are very keen to have SMEs such as the one you mentioned come along to that construction forum to share good practice and to hear about a range of other loans and other opportunities we have—stalled sites funds and so on—to bring forward land for development that will allow the SMEs that build such lovely housing to access funding to bring further developments into use in Wales as fast as possible.

Air Pollution

John Griffiths AC: 6. How will the Welsh Government work with local councils to tackle air pollution? OQ57721

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. We've recently launched a local air-quality management support fund to help authorities tackle air pollution, and have awarded over £350,000 for this financial year. The grant supports action on the ground and we'll continue to work collaboratively with local authorities to deliver cleaner air for Wales.

John Griffiths AC: Thank you for that, Minister. It is crucially important that we get our policies to tackle air pollution right, given the effect on public health, respiratory conditions and other health conditions and, of course, the effect on our environment. And I think these problems are particularly acute in our more disadvantaged communities. So, the sooner we get practical policies in place that are going to make a real difference the better. And I think one example of that is the conversion of our taxi fleets to electric vehicles or certainly more environmentally friendly fuels. And I just wonder, within the money that's been made available, Minister, that you describe and the joint working between Welsh Government and local authorities, to what extent there's an assessment of the state of readiness of our local authorities to make these practical improvements and to work with them to make those positive differences as quickly as possible. Because it really is an urgent problem for our communities, and the sooner we get these practical improvements in place, the sooner public health and our environment will benefit.

Lee Waters AC: We already are working on practical improvements. The example in Newport of free bus travel for the month of March is a perfect example of a practical scheme to trial something to see what impact it has, to see whether or not the cost of it is justified by the benefits of it, to see what the uptake is, to understand what the barriers are, to further inform our work as we look to achieve modal shift. There are further practical examples in Newport on active travel, with the Burns delivery unit and the independent board chaired by Simon Gibson to deliver the Burns plan—and we saw the interim report of the Burns board recently, and I met John Griffiths and his colleague from Newport West in Newport to discuss it—where we are seeing significant work on a pipeline of schemes for Newport now, which will result in very large investment for the city for active travel. So, I think there are two examples there of practical schemes already under way.
John Griffiths also mentions what we can do to encourage taxis to convert to electric vehicles and, as he knows, we currently have a pilot of a 'try before you buy' scheme in the Cardiff capital region, in Pembrokeshire and in Denbighshire, to incentivise taxi drivers to try electric vehicles with a view to them then buying them. We're going to be evaluating that to decide whether or not that is the best use of our scarce resource, given the way the market is already moving; it is already competitive to buy an electric car versus a new petrol car. And we'll be evaluating those projects and taking a further view of what other practical schemes we can do, as we develop our clean air plan and bring forward legislation.

Renewable Energy

Sam Rowlands MS: 7. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Economy on promoting the economic benefits from renewable energy production in north Wales? OQ57690

Julie James AC: I certainly recognise the substantial economic opportunity north Wales can realise from renewable energy. I'm working with the Minister for Economy and other Cabinet colleagues to capture the benefits from our energy transition, including through the regional energy strategy and the north Wales economic framework.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you very much, Minister, for your response, and I'm really pleased to hear that you too see the opportunities that renewable energy has for us in north Wales and Wales as a whole. If we're ambitious enough, we could see a transformation in our economy through the green economy that's right in front of us. As I'm sure you're aware, there are a number of significant renewable energy projects popping up all over north Wales at the moment, whether it's wind, solar or marine energy projects. One of my concerns, though, is us not realising the full opportunity and potential we could take from those. So, from making sure that our docks are properly utilised and that jobs can be created there, whether it's at Holyhead, Mostyn or elsewhere on the north Wales coast, and not losing those jobs to perhaps the docks at Liverpool or elsewhere—. So, I just want to hear a bit more about how you plan to ensure that some specific sites are being well utilised, that apprenticeships are being driven in north Wales and that young people, especially, have opportunities for great jobs in the region off the back of these projects.

Julie James AC: I absolutely agree entirely with you there, Sam Rowlands. There are significant opportunities from optimising the social value of our natural resources, including through the generation of local clean energy. And as you rightly identify, it's not the quantity of renewables being developed that generates the wealth but the development of all the local ownership structures, supply chains and employment opportunities that come with it. So, we've initiated, funded and supported four regional energy strategies that will start to identify the scale of change needed to achieve the low-carbon energy system. The strategies are all co-developed by the regional partnerships and are accompanied by an economic assessment of how to lever in the most social value out of the undoubted renewable largesse that we have right across Wales.
The vision presented within the north Wales energy strategy is estimated to result in an additional 24,400 net jobs and associated increase in gross value added of around £2.4 billion in the period to 2035, compared to business as usual. And that is absolutely associated with the delivery of accelerated deployment of renewable electricity-generation technologies and enhanced levels of energy efficiency to go with it. It estimates that there'll be over 1,200 more growth jobs associated with the provision of low-carbon heating technologies in that scenario, associated with a further £192 million of GVA.
So, I absolutely agree with you it's absolutely incumbent on all of us to work towards making sure that we emphasise community ownership, or some proportion of community ownership where possible, and by community ownership that can also include local authority ownership and Government ownership where appropriate to assist communities to get a foothold in the ownership structure. But it also includes making sure that we have the right skills base to attract the right jobs here, so that we have not just the maintenance and renewal jobs, but the engineering, design and construction jobs that come with them—the top-end jobs and the management jobs that come with that as well. So, absolutely on the same page as you, and we're working very hard with our regional partnerships to ensure just that.

Finally, question 8, Tom Giffard.

Flooding in South Wales West

Tom Giffard AS: 8. How is the Welsh Government working with Welsh Water to mitigate flood risks in South Wales West? OQ57683

Julie James AC: Thank you, Tom. The Welsh Government funds risk-management authorities, such as local authorities and Natural Resources Wales, to reduce flood risk. Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water are responsible for managing their own sewerage assets. We encourage all parties to work collaboratively to address the risk of flooding to all our communities.

Tom Giffard AS: Thank you, Minister, for that answer. You may be aware of the decision made by Welsh Water to close the Vardre bridge that spans the River Tawe at Clydach in my region. A structural survey undertaken by Welsh Water three years ago found that the bridge was unsafe and instead of repairing it, they simply closed the bridge. Local residents have contacted me to say they're concerned that now debris is building up and forming a dam that could lead to serious flood issues in the area, particularly as the river is known to rise to meet the bridge during heavy rainfall. The closure of the bridge is also causing significant disruption in the community. For example, Vardre Rugby Football Club use this bridge to access their pitches for their players and supporters, and they're now forced to take a detour of over a mile from their changing rooms to their pitch. The rugby club also were active in the community and cleared the debris around when it was in use, but now it's closed they're unable to do that, and therefore that causes that flooding concern in the community I mentioned earlier.
So, can I ask the Minister what value you expect Welsh Water to place on the importance of an asset to a community when considering what action it takes on it? Also, what maintenance and flood-prevention work do you expect Welsh Water to undertake on an asset like that, which is closed to the public? Finally, will you seek clarification from Welsh Water on behalf of the people of Clydach on their future plans for the Vardre bridge and whether they'll consider either maintaining or reopening the bridge, on which so many of the residents of that community rely?

Julie James AC: I'd expect Welsh Water to take into account a hierarchy of issues. The first is to prevent flooding. That's absolutely the first—loss of limb or life and to prevent flooding; that's the first thing they have to do. So, if they're looking at a building up of debris around the bridge and so on, they are expected to clean that out. They are expected to work in conjunction with Natural Resources Wales and the local authorities, and other agencies with responsibility for that, including—I don't know the example you give, but including the riparian owners and so on, to make sure that that is in an optimal condition to cope with any additional storm and so on. So, that's the first thing they need to do. Then the second thing they need to do is to make sure that all local amenities are recovered as fast as possible and to make sure that they do that in as timely a way as possible.
I'm not familiar with the incident you're talking about, so I'd encourage you to write in to me with details of the incident, and then I can look at the specifics for you. But, in general, obviously, the first thing is to prevent the flooding and loss of life and limb, then to make sure that infrastructure assets are as safe as they can be, and then to ensure that amenities are recovered as soon as possible.

I thank the Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Education and Welsh Language

The next item is questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, and the first question is from Delyth Jewell.

Cymraeg 2050 Targets

Delyth Jewell AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on progress with achieving targets set out in 'Cymraeg 2050', please? OQ57717

Jeremy Miles AC: Yesterday I published the 'Cymraeg 2050' annual report for the 2020-21 financial year, which shows progress against our targets. Once the results of the 2021 census have been published, we'll revisit the statistical trajectory towards a million Welsh speakers, as I promised last July when I launched our work programme for 2021-26.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Minister. The Welsh language belongs to us all, whether we speak it or not.

Delyth Jewell AC: But unpleasant commentary recently has sought to reawaken divides over Welsh. Jeremy Bowen, Jonathan Meades and others have rightly been criticised, but this could, ironically, be an opportunity, because the Government's plans with 'Cymraeg 2050' could centre not only on increasing the numbers of people who speak Welsh, as vital as that is, but centre also on creating favourable conditions. Surely, part of this has to entail increasing the sense of ownership that non-Welsh speakers feel for this language that enriches all of us in society. Some of the fiercest campaigners I know for Welsh-medium education are the very people who were denied the chance to learn Welsh when they were little. So, Minister, how do you think that Government plans and targets can work in concert with the need to increase this level of support for Welsh among those who can't speak it? How can we ensure that everyone living in Wales and everyone who feels this sense of belonging to Wales—that they feel that the language, too, belongs to them and that they have a part to play in its story?

Jeremy Miles AC: I would, if I may, just associate myself entirely with the sentiment in the question; I couldn't agree more with the world view that you've described in your question. It is fantastic that 86 per cent of adults in Wales have pride in the Welsh language, whether they speak it or not. Just let that statistic sink in; it's fantastic as a sort of starting point for the analysis.
I think one of the things we must do is make sure, as I was saying in the statement yesterday, that we encourage everybody, even if they have a word or two of Welsh, and most people in Wales have a word or two of the language, just to use them, because, actually, it's by creating the use of Welsh, even in that small way, in the public space that we'll help each other along that journey.
There are lots of people who feel put off by, maybe, feeling their Welsh isn't what they would like it to be, and I think we should, actually, change the expectation and say, 'Use the Welsh that you have got; learn a few more words and use a bit more every day.' In that way, we'll make real progress towards the million Welsh speakers and doubling the use of Welsh every day.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 'Cymraeg 2050' acknowledges the importance of Welsh-speaking communities as places that facilitate the use of the language in every aspect of everyday life. However, with the Welsh Government only delivering 4,616 of the 12,000 new homes required annually in Wales, there is a huge shortage of houses for our youngest generations to remain in their home towns or villages. In fact, a cumulative total of 14,240 young people in the 20 to 29 age group left four Welsh counties between 2012 and 2016. [Interruption.] The consultation on the Welsh language communities housing plan highlighted that you are considering options to help local people to access affordable housing. Minister, many Welsh-language young people are from farms and, as such, their families do own land. Technical advice note 6 allows for new isolated residential development in the open countryside for rural enterprise workers, but have you ever considered undertaking some discussions with the Minister for Climate Change to maybe expand—[Interruption.] Yes, you could do it now.

Allow the Member to carry on with her question. I'm sure she's coming to it very soon.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I am. To expand on TAN 6 that maybe children of farmers can more easily gain planning permission to build homes on their own family land. Diolch.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I think the question was a model of cross-Government scrutiny, in terms—[Interruption.]—in terms of its breadth and its scope, which is commendable. I think somewhat at odds with the comments I heard the Member made this morning about the proposals that the Government are bringing forward in relation to council tax to the benefit of some of those communities that she identifies rightly in her question—[Interruption.] That she identifies rightly in her question—

Carry on, Minister, yes.

Jeremy Miles AC: —as being a particular concern for many of us in this Chamber. I know from the discussions that we've had in a private setting that she shares many of those concerns as well. I would dispute the figures that you've given in relation to housing provision, and I know my colleague here, the Minister for Climate Change, is passionately disputing them as well to my side here. But I welcome her commitment to making sure that our Welsh-speaking communities, where Welsh is a main language, retain their vibrancy and their prosperity into the future. I hope she's taken the opportunity of responding to the consultation that closed during last week and I'll look forward to reading her comments if she has.

Higher Education Institution Pension Dispute

Rhys ab Owen AS: 2. What discussions has the Minister had to resolve the pension dispute in higher education institutions in Wales? OQ57697

Jeremy Miles AC: Universities of course are autonomous bodies, independent of Government, and they are responsible for their own administrative affairs. The Welsh Government Ministers have no authority to intervene in those discussions, but we hope they will reach a happy conclusion.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Thank you very much, Minister. It was a privilege to meet some of the strikers on the steps of the Senedd today and they praised my colleagues Sioned Williams and Mike Hedges for the support that they've shown them.
A fair pension should be a fundamental right for every worker in Wales, and the fact that they are cutting end-of-employment pensions by 35 per cent is disgraceful, and that is based on dated evidence. The more up-to-date information shows that the pension deficit has fallen significantly during the pandemic, and the universities' budgets have been healthy, with the number of students attending universities remaining consistent and increasing, indeed, which shows the quality of the workforce we have in higher education.
Now I accept what you say, namely that universities and higher education institutions are independent, but you do have influence, Minister, and I hope that you would do more than wish them well, and that you would use that influence to write to the vice-chancellors, showing your support to the workforce in HE and inform the vice-chancellors that they do have to come back to the table to negotiate. Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I've already made my expectations clear to the sector. It's important that the negotiations do reach a settlement that reflects the contribution and the interests of the staff. That's very important in terms of ensuring HE provision, but also in ensuring that we can attract people—students and teaching staff as well. But I've also explained that we need to be transparent and accountable in terms of the decisions made and the income coming to universities. So, I do hope that this will be able to reach an outcome that can reflect the interests of the staff as well.

Andrew RT Davies AC: We all want to see a resolution to this dispute, Minister, and I do understand, obviously, that higher education is an autonomous body and they are responsible for the negotiations in this particular aspect. Students have had a lot of disruption to their education over the last couple of years with COVID and now industrial action. We're in a critical window for most students, who have to have dissertations in by April, to get their marks ready for their degrees, hopefully. Would you support, where facilities have been withdrawn and services have been withdrawn to students, that they should be reimbursed? Because, obviously, students have paid in to those universities in expectation of tutorial time and face-to-face educational time, and if there's industrial action happening in the HE sector that isn't being provided and, in any other sector, you'd expect some recompense. So, would you support reimbursing students who haven't had that service provided to them?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, universities have provided a range of different means by which students can continue their education, even in the very, very challenging circumstances of the last two years, in fact. And that has involved offering a blended approach, which I'm sure none of us would want to see as the norm, but it has been a way in which students' experience has been able to be maintained, with, I think, some innovation in some campuses in particular. Where students feel that they have a particular concern about a particular course, then they have recourse through their student unions—I'd encourage them to take that up—and through the universities themselves.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Laura Jones.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, I think we both share a desire for education to be futureproof in Wales, especially at a time post-Brexit, which is presenting and will present so many international opportunities going forward. We need to ensure that pupils from Wales have the very best chances and are truly able to compete on a global stage. I spoke recently in the Chamber about the benefits of providing both modern and international languages across our educational settings, so I won't repeat. And it seems clear, from the money that the Welsh Government have put into this aspect of learning, that you acknowledge those benefits also, Minister. So, I'm wondering how, even though you've ploughed a total of £5.7 million into your Welsh Government's Global Futures programme, with the funding increased 71.8 per cent since 2015, GCSE entries in French and German have declined by 41.2 per cent and 45 per cent respectively. By contrast, in England, there were noticeable increases in French and English from 2019-20. And for the first time since records began, in England, Spanish attracted over 100,000 entries—almost double the 2005 total. It is clear that, in comparison, Minister, something in the Global Futures programme is failing. Could you please explain to the Senedd how any new moneys for this failing programme are going to reverse this downward trend? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I would dispute the impression that the question gives, I'm afraid, which is that this is a Wales-specific challenge. That doesn't make it any less of a challenge in Wales, but it does tell us something about the nature of the challenge, which is that there's a picture of a general decline, actually, in modern foreign languages right across the UK. So, I think it's an unhappy situation that all four parts of the UK have to wrestle with. I do think that the work that partners through the Global Futures programme have been doing has—. The focus of that has been to promote and to raise the profile of modern foreign languages in schools in Wales generally. We are working with Estyn, with the regional consortia, with universities, with Qualifications Wales, and, in that mix, there's a wealth of experience and resources in addition to support our schools in Wales. But I think one of the key opportunities for us, as we bring forward the new curriculum, and the reform to our qualifications, is to widen the choice available to our learners, and I think that extra flexibility we anticipate will help us in this challenge as well.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you, Minister. I'll just repeat: by contrast, in England, there were noticeable increases in French and Spanish from 2019-20, and that, since records began, Spanish has increased to 100,000 plus. It's completely different to our numbers, which are declining. Also, we have seen the modern foreign language teachers numbers in German and French decline by 14 per cent and 15 per cent respectively over the last five, six years. Is one of the causes of the Global Futures programme failing the lack of teachers coming forward, and, if so, what steps are you doing to rectify that, please, particularly, as you said, because the new curriculum presents us with so many opportunities, as does, potentially, changing the school day? So, we need to have these teachers in place so people are able to have those modern language opportunities if they desire, going forward. Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: I agree with the challenge that the Member describes in terms of recruitment. We have, of course, got an incentive scheme to encourage teachers into subjects such as some of the ones that she's referred to, which have been challenging in terms of recruitment in the past. And actually, those schemes do in fact lead to beneficial outcomes. I do think that it's a mix of challenges, really. One of the aspects of our education reform that I think may have a bearing on how this could look different in the future is the internationalisation of the education system generally in Wales through the Taith programme, which, although probably the focus has been on higher education, also benefits further education, schools as well, and youth services. So, I think there's a very exciting opportunity as part of that to raise the profile in our schools, alongside the new curriculum, of the importance of modern foreign languages, as well as the teaching of Welsh, of course.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you, Minister. Now moving to a more sobering subject, but an important one to address today, Minister, the situation in Ukraine is heartbreaking, and certainly not something I'm sure any of us thought we'd ever see again in Europe. It was made clear yesterday that we all want to see Wales as a refuge for Ukrainian refugees fleeing the conflict. In order to accommodate the children and give them the education they need and deserve when they are here, we need to be prepared.
Minister, with a general lack of teachers across Wales, and a large number of schools oversubscribed, what steps are you taking to ensure that we are able to welcome these children into our Welsh education system with open arms?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I dispute the point that the Member makes in terms of the general lack of teachers in our system. I don't think that's a remotely fair reflection of the situation that we are in, but I would associate myself with the sentiment in her question about how important it is for us in Wales to be able to extend our welcome to those leaving and fleeing Ukraine. And the Member will have heard the points that the First Minister made yesterday in the Chamber in relation to our ambitions as a nation in relation to that, and you may also have heard the comments that there are discussions with local government partners in relation to how we can work together to make sure that we are best placed to welcome those who may move here—and we hope that they do—and that will be part of those discussions.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you, Llywydd, and I'd like to declare an interest that my husband works for Swansea University.

Sioned Williams MS: Today, students from Wales are taking part in a strike organised by the National Union of Students, and the aim of the strike is to imagine a new vision for education, and is also a show of support for the industrial action taken by members of University and College Union, which has seen staff at Swansea University and the Open University in Wales strike over insecure contracts, unfair workloads and cuts to their pensions. This new vision of accessible and fully-funded higher and further education, with proper pay, pensions and conditions for staff is something we desperately need.
On 28 January, the UK Government's universities Minister announced that the repayment threshold and interest rate thresholds applying to plan 2 and plan 3 student loans would be frozen in 2022-23. The thresholds have previously risen with average earnings. The Institute for Fiscal Studieshas said this effectively constitutes a tax rise by stealth on graduates.
Minister, you have confirmed that the freeze would apply to Welsh graduates, despite education policy and significant parts of the student finance system being devolved. The Welsh Government seem powerless to oppose this freeze, which will add hundreds of pounds on to the tax bills of Welsh graduates already facing the effects of the cost-of-living crisis, and this isn't the only area where students are facing increasing costs. The average student rent in Wales has risen by 29 per cent in the last three years, which now, in fact, means it now takes 60 per cent of the maximum student support package in Wales, and all the while we know students are facing a rise in energy bills as a result of the incoming price cap increase.
So, can I ask the Minister what the Welsh Government is doing to support students and graduates during the cost-of-living crisis? Diolch.

Jeremy Miles AC: Can I just comment on the first point that the Member makes in relation to our ambitions for the education system in Wales? And I agree with her that the principle that underpins the higher education system in Wales is much more progressive than the ones that she was describing as happening over the border in terms of student finance. She will obviously know that every Welsh full-time undergraduate student receives a minimum of £1,000-worth of grant and additional support, regardless of where they choose to study in the UK, and we have a more progressive policy in relation to part-time study as well.
I think a less remarked, or a less often spoken about, difference that we have in Wales as well is that the Welsh Government makes provision to cancel up to £1,500 of maintenance loan debt for each student that starts repayment. That's the only part of the UK that does that, and we're very proud of having a more progressive system of finance here in Wales.
In relation to the point that she made about the loan threshold, which I made a written statement about in the last week or so, part of the challenge that we face here in Wales is that, whereas a lot of the powers sit in our hands in relation to student finance, the implementation of a different policy on the ground is not in our hands. That's a question for Her Majesty's Revenue and Customsin many respects and other non-devolved bodies. And, when a policy decision is made, as it was in this case, at very short notice, it provides really no room to be able to respond to it in a different way here in Wales. She will have seen, though, in the last few days a range of other proposals that have come out from the UK Government in relation to student finance reform, and I have asked officials to work with Treasury officials and UK Government officials to see what better room for manoeuvre we can have in Wales so that we can make different choices here than those that are made in very different circumstances across the border.

Sioned Williams MS: Diolch, Weinidog. Qualifications Wales was established in August 2015, and is an independent regulatory body set up to ensure that qualifications are effective for meeting the reasonable needs of learners in Wales and to promote public confidence in qualifications and the Welsh qualifications system. Qualifications Wales must produce an annual report detailing how it has exercised its functions. However, there is no legal requirement for Qualifications Wales to be reviewed independently after a set time frame. The current arrangements do not allow for regular independent review to ensure that the body is working in the best interests of the education sector and has the appropriate powers to fulfil its purpose, especially when we think now of the substantial changes currently being made to qualifications and GCSEs that we've seen recently.
In England, Ofqual employs a standards advisory board, made up of independent assessment specialists, to review research and make recommendations on maintaining standards. Similarly, the Scottish Qualifications Authority Act 2002 ensured that an advisory council was established as a part of the SQA. This council provides consistent advice to SQA and Scottish Ministers and allows for incidental or supplementary provision as Scottish Ministers think fit. So, I'd be interested to hear whether the Minister agrees it would be beneficial for Qualifications Wales to follow these examples of statutory governance structures and to be regularly and independently reviewed to help meet the core aims of the body. Diolch.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I will need to remind myself in a different context of the statutory underpinning of some of the points that the Member raises in her question and some of the particular questions of detail around governance that she refers to, and I'm very happy to do that. But what I would say at the moment is that there is a very significant programme of reform under way in relation to qualifications in Wales, where I know, in the discussions that we've had in the co-operation agreement, we have a common ambition that there is an ambitious and radical set of reforms to our qualifications in Wales to reflect the new curriculum, but also to reflect the changing landscape in the vocational qualification world, for example. And there are a number of opportunities that we all have at this point in time to engage with Qualifications Wales to help shape some of that, so that the work that they undertake on our behalf commonly best reflects the needs of learners in Wales. So, I would encourage anybody with an interest in how those qualifications work in the real world and the benefit they bring to our learners to engage. There's a real opportunity for us all to do that now.

Biometric Data

Sarah Murphy AS: 3. What assessment has the Minister made of the collection and use of pupils' biometric data in schools? OQ57698

Jeremy Miles AC: From our meeting in December, you will, I know, be aware that we can't legally prevent schools from collecting and using biometric data. However, as a consequence of the discussions and the issues that the Member helped us understand better, officials are currently revising the guidance for schools and local authorities to ensure that where data is collected and used, it is done in the appropriate way.

Sarah Murphy AS: Thank you. In March 2020, the European Data Protection Board imposed a fine on a Polish school for using biometric data, or fingerprints, for 680 children in the school canteen in exchange for their school meals. Whilst it was noted that the school had received written consent from parents, the board stressed that biometric data was not essential for lunchtime practices. They could not carry out means that do interfere with children's privacy. Minister, you can imagine my horror when it was brought to my attention that these same practices are taking place in schools across Bridgend and Porthcawl and all over Wales. Even more worryingly, the use of biometric data is being sold to schools and parents by unscrupulous companies as a safer option. Minister, I cannot emphasise this enough: it is not safe or proportionate. Passwords and PIN codes can be reset. Once your biometric data is compromised, it is compromised for life. It stops the children, for the rest of their lives, being able to use their fingerprint for security reasons. We're also teaching our children and normalising them using their bodies in exchange for meals as part of a transaction in our schools everywhere. I believe this topic needs a debate of its own, but, in the meantime, will the Minister ensure that data protection is a priority for this Government and ensure that, at the very least, children do not fall victim to data breaches as emerging technologies enter our schools?

Jeremy Miles AC: This is a very, very important matter, and I absolutely applaud the Member for her consistent and, if I may say so, expert advocacy of this issue, both in the Chamber and beyond. Schools have the option, as she says in her question, to use biometric systems as one of the authentication methods that they use to provide, for example, cashless catering in the context of free school meals and so on. That has helped remove some of the stigma.
However, as I say, as a consequence of the discussions that we've had, officials have been engaging with the Information Commissioner's Office, the Children's Commissioner for Wales, as well as the Biometrics Commissioner for England and Wales, in order to revise that guidance. The guidance will include detailed information regarding schools' obligations in relation to data protection, impact assessments and, importantly, children's rights impact assessments prior to making a decision to introduce a biometric system. It'll be published on our website and it'll be available to parents, to carers, and to young people themselves. The privacy of young learners is absolutely fundamental, and the guidance will reinforce the message that participation in a biometric system is not mandatory and that parents and carers must provide written consent before any biometric data can be collected. And I hope she would welcome the fact as well that a child-friendly version of the guidance will also be published so that children and young people in Wales understand their own rights to privacy in how they engage with these kinds of questions in schools. We'll be seeking direct feedback from young learners later this month regarding the content of that guidance.

James Evans MS: Minister, I've seen the benefit of biometric data in schools, as a local authority councillor. It was introduced to help reduce the stigma around free school meals. When everyone is using the same queue and the same payment system, it does reduce the potential for bullying and harassment. However, some parents and children and rightly worried and concerned about the use of the biometric data and where their details are being stored and whether they are very secure. So, Minister, will you take this opportunity to reassure parents and concerned individuals about the risks of data breaches following the installation of biometric devices, and can you confirm whether there have been any data breaches in schools or colleges across Wales? Diolch, Llywydd.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank James Evans for that question. I refer him to the answer I gave to Sarah Murphy a moment ago in relation to that. I'm not aware of any schools or colleges in Wales using the newer biometric technology such as facial recognition systems, for example, but I will reassure him, as I did with Sarah Murphy, that the guidance will set out for schools and parents and carers, but also for learners, the framework of rights and their entitlements in relation to this. Also, in an area where the technology is often changing very rapidly, we will undertake to keep that proactively under review as new technologies emerge.

Health and Social Care Students

Jack Sargeant AC: 4. How is the Welsh Government supporting higher education students wishing to study health and social care in Wales? OQ57716

Jeremy Miles AC: Our generous student support package and the NHS Wales bursary scheme enables students in these fields, along with our institutional investment in high-cost subjects, including medicine and dentistry. We are committed to establishing the north Wales medical school, which will complement existing high-quality medical education in Wales.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for that answer. The coronavirus pandemic has shown us all just how important and key social workers are, and if we are to encourage people into the social work profession I think we need a parity of bursary with the NHS bursary you mentioned. People who look to go through this training are often older and they're often from a very diverse background. I had the pleasure of meeting a few of those this afternoon, and they really do need this bursary. Minister, you'll be aware of a petition currently going through the Senedd committee's process, and that calls for removing all barriers to entering the profession and it calls for a parity of the bursary and a parity of esteem in that offer. Can you commit to that parity of bursary and, if so, when?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, as the Member says, social work students are unable to access the NHS bursary, but they can access the social work bursary through Social Care Wales, and that provides them with funding towards the cost of their living and tuition fees. Obviously, I'm aware of the representations, including those to which the Member refers, that the bursary funding doesn't provide the same level of funding as its NHS counterpart, and we are currently reviewing and assessing our options with respect to the funding of social work training. From 2022-23, all postgraduate social work students in receipt of the bursary will now be able to access the reduced student finance loan, which closes a loophole that has prevented them from receiving that kind of loan prior to now.

Gareth Davies AS: Minister, we need to do all we can to encourage more young people to consider studying for a career in health and social care in Wales, particularly in north Wales, as you mentioned before, to prevent this brain drain that we often talk about. No amount of money will solve the crisis facing health and social care. It's not a shortage of funds causing our growing waiting lists; it's a shortage of people. So, what steps are you taking to encourage more people into STEM subjects? And what discussions have you had with Welsh universities regarding steps they can take to make it easier for Welsh students to study in this field?

Jeremy Miles AC: There is a range of interventions, on which I worked together with my colleague the Minister for Economy, in schools in relation to this, and there is a need to make sure that the STEM subjects are accessible and attractive to all students, actually. There is sometimes gender bias within those subjects. So, I certainly think there is more that we can all do in that regard.
Some of the reforms I was just talking about—reforms to qualifications in the future—are designed specifically to open up greater opportunities for a wider range of GCSEs, many of which are STEM-adjacent subjects, for example in the fields of engineering and manufacturing. I think that will create a different culture and different set of expectations within our schools, and open up greater opportunities for people to study STEM or STEM-relevant subjects.

Early Years Welsh-medium Provision

Vikki Howells AC: 5. What action is Welsh Government taking to improve access to Welsh-medium early years provision? OQ57713

Jeremy Miles AC: Working with partners, including local authorities and Mudiad Meithrin, we are making significant investment in Welsh-medium early years provision via our capital grants, the Sefydlu a Symud programme, and our investment in the workforce. We also fund Welsh-medium places through Flying Start, the childcare offer, and our early education provision.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister, for that answer. Now, Cynon valley has a number of flourishingmeithrins, in Penderyn, Aberdare, Mountain Ash and Abercynon, and it is important that they are sustainable and can access suitably qualified staff. The extra financial support from Welsh Government for meithrins that you announced a little while ago is of course very welcome, and I know you referred to Cam wrth Gam in your statement on St David's Day yesterday, setting out the ambition of the Government to nurture the Welsh language. But can you provide a little more information on how Welsh Government is working to encourage, promote and support people into careers in Welsh-medium childcare?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for that really important supplementary question. The last meeting I had before coming into the Chamber today was in fact with the Deputy Minister for Social Services, who was reviewing the 10-year workforce plan for the sector, and identifying with her what more we can do to encourage young people into Welsh language provision in early years settings more broadly. But there is a broad and varied programme of support in place for the childcare, play-work and early years workforce in relation to learning and improving Welsh, which includes programmes like Camau, which is an online, entry level self-study course, and accessing workplace learning. There are also a number of options open to people considering joining the childcare sector, with apprenticeships and full and part-time courses available both in Welsh and in English. We're aware, obviously, as her question implies, that the number undertaking those courses through the medium of Welsh is lower than we want them to be, and we'll be working to improve this over the course of the Senedd term.

Paul Davies AC: Minister, yesterday the Welsh Government announced funding for 11 capital projects to expand Welsh-medium education, and I am pleased to see £2.5 million being allocated to Ysgol Caer Elen in my constituency to fund an additional 60 Welsh-medium placements for children in the longer term. This funding is to be welcomed and certainly will help to improve access to Welsh-medium education in Pembrokeshire, although it is very important that children can access early years provision through the medium of Welsh in all parts of the county. So, can you provide us with an update on the discussions that you've had with Pembrokeshire County Council on improving access to Welsh-medium education? And can you also tell us what discussions have taken place with Mudiad Meithrin, who also played an important part in introducing families to the Welsh language through the Cylch Ti a Fi and Clwb Cwtsh schemes, for example?

Jeremy Miles AC: Of course, the authority has introduced the Welsh in education strategic plan for me to approve, and I'm looking at that at the moment. Every authority in Wales has been asked to be ambitious in terms of what they provide in terms of Welsh-medium education through the next decade. For the first time, we can go to a 10-year plan and I think that that will facilitate linguistic planning, including our schools, of course, but also the early years.
We have an investment scheme with Mudiad Meithrin over this Senedd term. We've reached the latest aim of 43. Twelve are being opened in this financial year as part of 60 over this Senedd term. We know that the chance that someone will go forward to Welsh-medium education is much higher if they've been in Welsh-medium early years education, so I do share with the Member that priority.

Participation in Sport

Peter Fox AS: 6. What advice and support does the Welsh Government provide to schools to ensure that participation in sport is available to all students? OQ57711

Jeremy Miles AC: We are committed to supporting the physical health and well-being of all learners in Wales. That is why the promotion of the lifelong benefits of physical health, including sport, is a mandatory part of every curriculum in every school and setting in Wales for three to 16-year-olds.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Minister. Thanks for that response. Minister, you will already be aware that the UK's chief medical officers have recently published the first ever guidelines on physical activity for disabled children and young people. It is now recommended that disabled young people take part in around 20 minutes of exercise a day and strength and balance activities three times a week. These guidelines will go some way in helping to support disabled children and young people to improve their physical and mental health, as well as closing the wider health gap between disabled and non-disabled people. However, it's important that schools and other educational facilities help to facilitate participation in sport and physical activity for all students, and that can be quite difficult when there's a lack of appropriate equipment and facilities, and a very crowded curriculum.
Minister, what discussions have you and your officials had about the impact of the new guidance on the teaching of sports in schools, and what more support can the Welsh Government provide to schools to ensure that they have the equipment needed so that all children and young people have equal access to sport and physical activity?

Jeremy Miles AC: Officials are considering that in the way that you imply in your question at the moment. I completely agree with the point that you're making, that it's vital that access to sporting activities and physical activities in schools are available and accessible to all our learners. I think that's a principle that underpins the importance of health and well-being in our new curriculum, and I made a speech a couple of weeks ago where I was keen to emphasise that the curriculum is a curriculum for all our learners, and so it needs to be regarded in that way, and we will look at what more we can do in terms of professional learning and resources to make sure that that part of the curriculum is as inclusive as it possibly can be.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you.

Jayne Bryant AC: COVID-19 has disrupted almost every part of our lives, but for many young people, they've missed out on those crucial first opportunities to take part in sports that interest and excite them, and these are some of the most important formative years. We all know the benefits that sports can bring to both the physical and mental well-being of our young people, and we must ensure that children do not miss out on those benefits for years to come because of the pandemic.
What role does the Minister see our schools having in making sure that our youngest generation still get these opportunities, and what more can we do to encourage more participation in school sports?

Jeremy Miles AC: I think schools have a very, very important role in making those opportunities available, and the mandatory expectation for physical health in the new curriculum from September onwards I think reflects the important role that schools have to play in that. We work hard in the Government to continue to ensure that all schools can offer that range of high-quality sport and physical activity opportunities.
You will have heard the Deputy Minister yesterday talking about the new 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' strategy, but also that daily active offer as part of that strategic approach for all our learners, and part of that is around making sure that all our children and young people have access to settings where physical and mental health remains a priority. And so, making sure that the curriculum provides an outcomes-focused programme through the Welsh network of healthy school schemes will be an important contribution to that; the daily active offer, which I've mentioned as well, together with work that we do with Sport Wales and other third sector organisations to ensure that every child has access to sport and physical activity opportunities. She will also know about the winter of well-being package that has been rolled out over the last few weeks, and, obviously, an important part of that is providing additional sessions around the school day to promote physical, mental and emotional well-being, both in English and in Welsh.

The Twenty-first Century Schools and Colleges Programme

Mike Hedges AC: 7. Will the Minister provide an update on the twenty-first century schools and colleges programme in Swansea? OQ57682

Jeremy Miles AC: I'm pleased that Swansea's proposed £150 million school estate investment continues to move at pace, with four projects already completed. This means more than £38 million has been invested in schools in Swansea during second-wave investment through the sustainable communities for learning programme.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I thank the Minister for that response? Last month, I attended the official opening of the new Tan-y-lan school, where my grandchildren attend, and this month, I will be attending the opening of the new Tirdeunaw school. Of the six comprehensive schools in Swansea, three have been rebuilt on the same site, one completely refurbished and one is a relatively new school. The only school that's only had emergency work done on it is Bishop Vaughan, the local Catholic school. Will the Minister meet with the Catholic Education Service, Swansea Council and the school to discuss a way of rebuilding the school on the current site?

Jeremy Miles AC: I'm hoping to join you at the opening of the Tirdeunaw school, in fact, so I look forward to that opportunity. Obviously, we're aware that a number of voluntary-aided schools are in need of replacement and refurbishment, and my officials continue to work with local authorities and diocesan authorities to look at the funding options available. I will, in fact, be meeting with representatives from the Catholic Education Service and the diocesan directors of education next week to discuss the challenges that the sector faces, and I'd be very happy to meet with Swansea Council and schools' representatives to specifically discuss the issue that the Member has raised.

The Driving Theory Test in Welsh

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 8. Will the Minister make a statement on the availability of revision material for the driving theory test in Welsh? OQ57689

Jeremy Miles AC: The Welsh Language Commissioner's office has investigated this matter. Only publications produced by the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency are covered by their Welsh language scheme. So, as it stands, the revision material is not available in Welsh, but I will continue to work with the commissioner's office to seek a resolution to this.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much. I've been trying to find a resolution to this through the DVSA and by asking for Welsh Government support for around eight years now. It is so frustrating. Quite simply, you are welcome to take your theory test through the medium of Welsh, but there is no revision material online or mock tests and so on. There's nothing available. I know of many who wanted to take their theory test in Welsh, but chose to take the English test because of this, and I can fully understand why. And I also know of some who feel that they had been disadvantaged because the test wasn't in their first language.
Now, Cai Phillips, a former Member of the Youth Parliament, got figures through a freedom of information request that show that 382 people had done the practical driving test in Welsh in 2018-19, but only 53 did the theory test in Welsh. The pattern is similar in other years. And as we have heard, the DVSA say, 'Well, it's not our responsibility; it's a matter for the private sector and there is no competition for Welsh.' But we can't leave this to market forces, we need intervention.
Now, former Ministers and the Welsh Language Commissioner, as we've heard, have said that they share my dissatisfaction with this situation, but please can we have a greater commitment than those few words, Minister, despite how positive they are, to put pressure on the DVSA and, indeed, to work on the DVSA—work with them—and not to give in until this changes, not only because it's important as a matter of principle, but also because of the practical need for these tests?

Jeremy Miles AC: The Member says that this is frustrating, well, it is frustrating. It is a situation that causes great concern, I would say. People are going to look at the availability of Welsh revision materials when they decide how to take their tests. So, that's an obvious risk, I would say, and it's about time that the DVSA fulfilled their responsibilities and provided Welsh language materials as well. So, there is no lack of clarity in terms of what the requirement is and what the responsibility of the DVSA is in this sense.
As the Member mentioned, the issue has been discussed several times over the years, here and in other places. The attitude of the DVSA on this issue hasn't changed and, because of that, the Welsh Language Commissioner's officials want to discuss this with the Books Council of Wales to see whether there are alternative options that we can explore in this sense. The commissioner's office will discuss this with the office of the Secretary of State for Wales as well. I am eager to back the commissioner's work in this area because an investigation is under way. So, I want to collaborate with them to see what more we can do to encourage the body to improve its Welsh language services. I will be raising the issue with the deputy commissioner when I next meet her. But, it's quite clear what the responsibility of the DVSA is in this context.

Thank you, Minister.

3. Topical Questions

The topical question is next, to be answered by the Minister for rural affairs and to be asked by Mabon ap Gwynfor.

The United Kingdom and Aotearoa (New Zealand) Trade Agreement

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 1. What assessment has the Government made of the impact of the United Kingdom and Aotearoa (New Zealand) trade agreement on agriculture in Wales? TQ602

Lesley Griffiths AC: We've worked with our industry stakeholders to identify the impacts on Welsh agriculture. This work underpinned our representations to the UK Government that any trade deal must not disadvantage Welsh farmers or compromise our high animal and environmental standards.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I thank the Minister for that response. Now, whatever the spin of the Conservative Government in Westminster, the truth is that this trade agreement will leave Welsh farmers at the whim of a market that they have no control over. If something changes in the lamb market, particularly in terms of China or the United States, then there will be far more New Zealand lamb reaching these shores or going into the European Union, undermining our farmers. Without a tariff, Welsh farmers have no say and no protection. Plaid Cymru has warned for some time that these trade agreements will have a detrimental impact on Welsh farmers. The Farmers Union of Wales has suggested that the impact of the agreement with Australia, for example, will lead to a reduction of £29 million in the red meat GVA in Wales. Whilst it's not possible for us to make the same forecasts for the agreement with New Zealand, the data available suggests that the impact of both these agreements will lead to a decline of somewhere in the region of £50 million in the GVA of the red meat market in Wales.
So, I would like to ask you as Minister whether you believe that this is a price worth paying. Welsh farmers are more vulnerable to a bad agreement than other farmers in this state. Also, does the Minister agree with me that the Westminster Government needs to hold a full assessment of these trade agreements and their impact on Welsh farmers?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, I do. I think it is that cumulative impact, because it's very clear to us and probably to your party, and certainly to the stakeholders we spoke to, that one of the things we were very concerned about with the Australia deal is that it would set a precedent and you can see now with the New Zealand deal that that is absolutely the case. So, I do think that an assessment is needed. Now the deal has been signed, obviously our officials and I need to scrutinise that next chapter. But we warned them; this is what we told them would happen. We're very concerned about the animal health and welfare standards and the environmental standards. I think New Zealand have very similar standards to us, if not higher, perhaps, in some cases, where Australia certainly doesn't. But it is that cumulative impact—you know, what's the next trade deal going to do? So, I think it is important that we monitor it very carefully. We repeatedly raised concerns with the UK Government about this, but I'm afraid they haven't listened to us.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Minister, I'm grateful to the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd for bringing this question forward today, but it is important to note and remember that this trade deal is worth much more and is much broader than agriculture alone. This isn't spin—[Interruption.] This isn't spin, as the Member said. This deal is the most advanced agreement that New Zealand has signed with any nation bar Australia. Despite the chuntering of the Member from Blaenau Gwent on the back benches, it is one of the most environmentally green deals ever, confirming commitments to the Paris agreement and net zero. It will liberalise tariffs on the largest list of environmental goods in any free trade agreement to date and encourage trade and see investment in low-carbon services and technology. It will also ensure that produce not able to be grown or produced here in Wales, such as Marlborough sauvignon blanc, manuka honey and kiwifruit, become more affordable to Welsh consumers. At the current time, 210 Welsh businesses export goods to the value of £23 million—[Interruption.] They may wish to shut me down, however these are the facts, Llywydd.

No, you won't be shut down unless I say so, and you can carry on, in my opinion.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Diolch i ti, Llywydd. At this time, 210 Welsh businesses export goods to the value of £23 million to the New Zealand market, and the indication is that, across the whole of the UK, the value of this relationship is likely to increase by almost 60 per cent. While I understand the agricultural industry's concerns that Wales will be flooded with an influx of New Zealand lamb, we already know that New Zealand do not even use half of the quota that they are allowed to export under existing rules. In fact, New Zealand sheep meat exports to the UK have fallen by nearly a half over the last decade. With Wales currently exporting agri-produce to the value of £1.8 million to New Zealand, and £23 million of export in total, could I ask the Minister what plans she has to help the Welsh agricultural sector further grow this market, and what discussions is she having with Cabinet colleagues to ensure that we make full advantage of this trade deal with New Zealand?

Lesley Griffiths AC: The Member does a sterling job in putting a very positive spin on this trade deal. The question I was asked—[Interruption.]

Let the Minister respond, please.

Lesley Griffiths AC: The question I was asked was about the impact on agriculture, and you will appreciate that's where I've had my focus. It is important that we do look at how we can expand our exports. You will be aware that the Minister for Economy is currently in Dubai at Expo 2020, where, yesterday, for St David's Day, Welsh food and drink was promoted on the UK pavilion for the whole day. We've just had Gulfood, where Welsh Government supported eight food and drink companies, and we're continuing to work with Hybu Cig Cymru to make sure that we do expand new markets for our very high-quality Welsh lamb and beef. But that does not take away the concerns that we have about the New Zealand trade deal. You are quite right; New Zealand doesn't currently meet its tariff-free quotas for lamb, and that's primarily due to the costs and the distance of exporting to the UK, as compared to the far nearer and obviously larger Chinese market. But there is a risk that New Zealand will pivot away from China, in particular due to current trade friction. Of course, New Zealand does, as I say, send the majority of its beef, for instance, to China and the United States. These are large markets that will still demand the majority of exports, but it's the cumulative impact that we are particularly concerned about.

Joyce Watson AC: I'm grateful to take part in this question, and I thank Mabon for laying it. Unlike Samuel Kurtz, who will try to defend the indefensible, and has swallowed, obviously, the little black book or whatever it is he's been given to do that, I don't feel quite so assured, and I'm sure the farmers in my area and his area won't feel quite so assured either. It is a fact—let's keep to the facts here—that Australian animal welfare is lower. [Interruption.] This now is, you're quite right, a New Zealand trade deal. We all know that there is a high dependency in our area on exporting Welsh lamb, and it is, in my view, the best lamb in the world; there is no question about that. But we can't ignore the fact that there is going to be a cumulative effect of all these trade deals. It doesn't matter how you try to talk it up. And that in itself will have a negative impact on the farmers here in the UK, particularly here in Wales. Brexit was supposed to deliver freedom. Well, it isn't going to deliver much freedom for these farmers when they haven't got any money in their pockets. So, my question to you, Minister, is: above and beyond what the Welsh Government is already doing to support Welsh farmers, which is much more than the UK Government, by the way, what more is the Welsh Government able to do, considering that the budget for farmers has already been decreased by excessive amounts of money, so that Welsh Labour ensures the future of Welsh farming here in Wales, unlike the Tory Government who are determined to destroy it?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Joyce Watson makes some very important points. The UK Government, however the Tories over there defend them, cannot pretend that they've ever supported farmers in the deals that they have brought forward since we've left the European Union, and you only have to look at my budget to see how much money farmers have lost from the UK Government in their funding to the Welsh Government. The Member will be aware that work is well under way to bring forward an agriculture Bill this year. That will ensure our future plans take into account the potential impacts of trade deals. That's something I've been very keen for officials to work through. What we want to do is make agriculture much more resilient and competitive. And, of course, we've always said, haven't we, that our rural communities are so important for our culture, for our heritage of Wales and, of course, for the Welsh language, and farmers are right at the heart of that.

Thank you, Minister.

4. 90-second Statements

The next item is 90-second statements. There's one today, and that's by Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. Today, I want to pay tribute to the lifeboat crew of Trearddur Bay.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Today, the Trearddur Bay RNLI lifeboat station and crew make history by becoming the first station ever to receive a silver gallantry medal for a rescue onboard a B-class Atlantic 85 inshore lifeboat. Cast your minds back to the storms of May last year. As most of us took shelter, the crew of the Atlantic 85 were called into action, launching at the very limits of the boat’s capabilities, in gale force 9 winds, to rescue a surfer in trouble. They found her at the mouth of the bay, within a few metres of the jagged rock face, struggling to keep her head above water. The prestigious silver accolade goes to helm Lee Duncan in recognition of his leadership, seamanship and exemplary boat handling. He manoeuvred the boat with amazing precision and timing to reach the casualty, allowing the crew to quickly recover her from the water. As well as Lee Duncan’s silver award, bronze medals are being given to the volunteer crew, Dafydd Griffiths, Leigh McCann and Michael Doran, recognising their courage. I met Dafydd at the station a few days after the rescue, and he described it as one of the worst incidents he’d seen in over 20 years of RNLI volunteering. The entire Trearddur Bay team involved in the rescue are recognised with a chief executive’s commendation. The crew don’t do what they do for recognition, but this is a very public reminder of the bravery and the selflessness of RNLI volunteers everywhere.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Ynys Môn is proud and very grateful to you.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

5. Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal: Alun Davies (Blaenau Gwent)—The impact of storm overflows

Item 5 is next, a debate on a Member's legislative proposal, the impact of storm overflows. I call on Alun Davies to move the motion.

Motion NDM7833 Alun Davies
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes a proposal for a Bill to reduce the adverse impact of storm overflows.
2. Notes that the purpose of the Bill would be to:
a) place a duty on a sewerage undertaker whose area is wholly or mainly in Wales to secure a progressive reduction in the adverse impact of discharges from the undertaker's storm overflows;
b) to reduce adverse impacts of sewerage discharges on both the environment and on public health;
c) make the duty on a sewerage undertaker enforceable by the Welsh Ministers or by the authority with the consent of, or in accordance with a general authorisation given by, the Welsh Ministers.

Motion moved.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to bring forward this legislative proposal. Members who have had the opportunity to note the legislation I propose—well, those eagle-eyed Members, certainly—will note a certain familiarity with the wording. It is, of course, the wording that was accepted as an amendment in the House of Lords last October. When I brought forward this piece of legislation last October, it was with the intention of seeking to understand where does Wales stand, what is the legislative and statutory framework for the management of releases into watercourses in Wales, because I think we do need to fully understand. I'm glad the Minister herself is answering this debate, because I think it would be very useful for us to understand the statutory framework that exists in Wales. I should say that since I brought this forward, I understand that the climate change committee as well has taken an opportunity to look at this subject, and I think we're all looking forward to reading the report of that committee.
My concern is that the framework that currently exists in order to regulate this part of the statute book is somewhat complex. I question whether it is fit for purpose, and I look forward to the Minister providing us with the reassurance that it is. To my understanding, the current legislative framework is largely established by, first of all, the Water Industry Act 1991, but then the Water Act 2003 and the Water Environment (Water Framework Directive) (England and Wales) Regulations 2017, which provide for the primary mechanism for assessing and managing the water environment. These regulations then place a statutory duty on Welsh Ministers to prevent deterioration and to improve all water bodies to 'good' status by 2027. I'd be grateful for the Minister's confirmation that she is committed to meeting that objective.

Alun Davies AC: We also know that Natural Resources Wales prepares river basin management plans for each of the three river basin districts in Wales, and these plans should impact water quality and they should set environmental objectives and implement a programme of measures to protect and improve the environment. Whilst I welcome the fact that NRW does have the ability and should set these management plans, it's difficult to note without disappointment that although they were consulted upon three years ago, no final plans have yet been published. I think that is a real source of disappointment and also concern for us. Given this somewhat complex statutory environment, I wonder why the Welsh Government sought to exclude Wales from some of the proposals in the Environment Act 2021, which gained Royal Assent last November.
In normal times, I would always argue—and the Minister has heard me argue this—that there should be a distinct statute book for Wales where the legislation that affects Wales can be found and easily accessed. One of the criticisms made, of course, about the statute book by the former Lord Chief Justice Thomas in his commission's report is that it's very difficult to access and understand where Welsh law sits. The reason for that is complexity, and one of the reasons for the complexity is the fact that Welsh law sits in more than one place. It sometimes sits in a number of different places, which means that it's difficult to understand, not just for ourselves but also for lawyers, judges and legal professionals. That is a fair and reasonable criticism to make. I wish to understand where we are in Wales at the moment, what is the statutory framework, and how does that deliver the objectives that I think we will all share on all sides of the Chamber today and across the country. We all want to see river water quality improved, we want to see watercourse quality improve, we want to see water bodies' quality improved, and we want a statutory framework that's understandable, that's easy to appreciate and to understand, and that can then be delivered by the bodies, individuals, organisations and businesses that are affected by it.
What I don't want to do this afternoon is to criticise either the current water companies that we have in Wales or those people who provide for discharges to watercourses, because that isn't the purpose of what I'm proposing today. What I do want to do is to ensure that we have a statutory framework in place to regulate discharges to watercourses and water bodies, and then we can have the debate and the discussion about how we deliver the improvement in water quality, because that then enables us to deliver that in all sorts of different ways.
I think one of the things that's really affected a lot of us—. As somebody who grew up in the Valleys of south Wales, in Tredegar, I well remember the Sirhowy river when I was a child, which was filthy, and I don't think we can put too fine a point on it. That water contained almost anything you can imagine. I remember telling friends of mine who lived 'down the country', as we used to say, down in Llangynidr and elsewhere, that, 'Our rivers are better than yours because they've got more colour in them' and, 'It's a terrible river because you can see the bottom of it'. I think those days are gone, and I hope they have gone, but what we need now is a statutory framework that will ensure that moving forward we're all able to guarantee water quality wherever we livein Wales, and that we're able to have a statutory framework that we can all understand as well. Thank you very much.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I'd like to thank Alun Davies MS for what I consider to be an exceptional legislative proposal. Now, whilst the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales is targeting all farmers in relation to water pollution through the Water Resources (Control of Agricultural Pollution) (Wales) Regulations 2021, Welsh Water and other water companies are effectively responsible for too many water pollution incidents and simply they are allowed to get away with it, and it is not being addressed. Too often, in my own constituency, I can think of incidents where hundreds and hundreds of fish died and were found dead as a result of water pollution incidents, and local anglers bringing this to my attention. I then contact the water companies and, indeed, NRW, but the speed by which they work is simply not fast enough. Last year I worked on a case that highlighted the fact that despite Welsh Water being aware of hydraulic overload flooding issues at a lay-by in Capel Curig during heavy rain, and that's been happening since 2004, it still remains the case, almost two decades later, that the organisationsimply cannot justify a permanent solution to the flooding issues.
According to the Consumer Council for Wales it is important to understand that if the flooding has been caused by the public sewer, the sewerage provider is responsible for fixing the problem. Additionally, with regard to sewerage undertakers, the following is noted in section 94(1)(a) of the Water Industry Act 1991:
'It shall be the duty of every sewerage undertaker...to provide, improve and extend such a system of public sewers (whether inside its area or elsewhere) and so to cleanse and maintain those sewers and any lateral drains which belong to or vest in the undertakeras to ensure that that area is and continues to be effectually drained'.
I actually do believe, and it's understandable—no-one is not saying it is—that they are failing, currently, to meet that duty due to finance issues. We need to undertake a frank discussion with the organisation to establish exactly what it would take to ensure that their infrastructure operates in an effective way that does not harm the environment. And I have to say, in all fairness to Dŵr Cymru, when they've had issues, it can be—. I think Welsh Government have a part to play here, Minister. I think we all, as Members, should be doing more to highlight the problem that plastic wipes that are flushed down the toilet—the negative impact that has. I quite often retweet Dŵr Cymru notices asking people not to put these things in the toilet, because they are really causing heavy pollution, heavy blockages and, you know, our—

Can the Member conclude now—[Inaudible.]?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: —rivers to be unhealthy. Okay, that's it. Thank you.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you to the Member for Blaenau Gwent for introducing this legislative proposal. A number of constituents have been in touch with me, as is the case for many other Members I know, expressing concerns about sewage being spilt into our waters from storm overflows—many of them supporting the call by Surfers Against Sewage to stop the release of sewage into the seas by 2030. These people include swimmers, surfers and also people who are encouraged to use the seas for their health and well-being. And the concern is that the current practices not only have clear environmental implications, but they also represent a direct risk to the health of people using our waters. There was one surfer who truly wanted to take advantage of a good day of waves, as we have around Anglesey very often, but told me, 'I'm not sure how ill I will be if I do go surfing.'
In looking into the issue, one thing that became clear to me was that it's only during the usual swimming season that water monitoring actually happens, and it doesn't happen in winter when there is potential for CSO spills to be higher, of course, and often because of wetter weather. And representing an island constituency, I can tell you that people do use our beaches and waters at all times of the year, and some of the best surfing waves come in midwinter. You need to actually look at them very closely, if you ask me—it looks very cold—but some people do enjoy that, and I enjoy watching them, I have to say.
But I will ask the Member whether he would agree on the need for monitoring 12 months of the year, and is that something that the Bill that he proposes would deliver? And perhaps the Minister could also comment on the need to extend the current seasonal monitoring. It would be of great help to constituents in making choices as to whether they do go swimming or surfing or not, and I think it would aid with the objectives of the proposed legislation too. And I'm happy to support it.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I also thank my colleague Alun Davies for tabling this important piece of legislation? It is something I will support on behalf of my constituents who live in the lower Swansea valley. There is serious pollution in the River Tawe, especially as it travels through Swansea en route to the sea. The Tawe has discharge from the Trebanos treatment works, and waste materials such as parts of trees and plastic are also there causing pollution. Anglers are concerned about untreated human waste entering a river where children regularly play. I'm told that there is evidence of eutrophication on the River Tawe. My constituents feel there is inadequate action by Natural Resources Wales, and they are the ones who think there's no action at all by NRW.
According to Welsh Water, when there is heavy rainfall, too much water can get into the sewer, meaning it has to be released back into rivers or the sea without the usual treatment. This is going back to the nineteenth century. Welsh Water have said they are permitted to operate sewers in this way by Natural Resources Wales, and the practice is unlikely to cause environmental damage. Well, if it's unlikely to cause environmental damage, the question has to be, why do they not discharge all sewage directly into the rivers and into the sea, if there's no environmental damage being caused? I'm unconvinced that there's no environmental damage; my constituents are certainly unconvinced there's no environmental damage.
Local anglers say the river still smells foul days after heavy rainfall has ceased, and that is a public health concern. They're also concerned that the sewage can cause excessive algae growth, which could upset the river's ecosystem. And I don't think that we always think about rivers in terms of their ecosystem, but, like everywhere else, they are very prone to one thing happening that can cause serious problems. And we have rivers that are almost dead because of the algae growing in them, and that's something we don't want to see happening.
If there was a storm and you get lots of water in the drain, the storm storage part of the sewer fills up and discharges into the river. It should stop when the storm stops. But here the issue continues for up to 36 hours after the storm, caused by excessive surface water getting into the sewer. There is a lack of investment in storm water storage, and the only solution is more money being spent. The only way we're going to get more money spent is making it a legal requirement. That's why I support Alun Davies's proposal.
We want to reduce the impact of sewage discharge on both the environment and on public health, and we need to place a duty on a sewerage undertaker, enforceable in law, to not discharge untreated sewage. If they can get away with it, why would they engage in treating it? We need to support this because it's for the benefit of anyone of us who lives near a river.

Peter Fox AS: Can I thank the Member for Blaenau Gwent for bringing this forward, and for his introductory speech, which captured so many things that I think we'll all agree with? There's no doubt about it, sewage discharge is very important and very topical; I think there is little that occupies my inbox more than this at the moment, especially in our area. Recent statistics have shown that raw sewage was dumped into Welsh rivers more than 100,000 times, for almost 900,000 hours, during 2020. In fact, Tintern, in my own constituency, saw some of the highest numbers of sewage releases in south-east Wales in 2020, recording 263 releases over 1,489 hours. These are absolutely staggering numbers.
The River Usk is particularly affected by this issue. It has experienced a number of release events in recent years, over and above those that have happened due to high rainfall, and that is the big bone of contention. Last year we know an investigation by Panorama—we all saw it—found that the Aberbaiden treatment plant in Usk illegally dumped untreated sewage into the River Usk on 12 consecutive days in December 2020. And it was discovered that there was also a Welsh Water-owned sewage overflow pipe into the River Usk that didn't have a permit. Now, I know these issues have since been looked into and are being worked on by Welsh Water. However, concerns remain as to how fast the required sewage disposal infrastructure can be put in place to mitigate against sewage discharge, and that's all across Wales. So, there is also concern and frustration expressed regularly, certainly by constituents, that our regulators are not taking robust enough action on those who knowingly pollute, and that includes water companies.
As we're all aware, the release of sewage into the natural environment, as we've already heard, even when absolutely unavoidable, results in pollution and reduces water quality, as well as harming wildlife, and it's clear, then, that more action is needed to cut down on such incidents across Wales. However, I realise that there isn't an easy fix, and that companies are taking some action to reduce the impact of overflows on the environment. For example, I'm aware that Welsh Water have been working with NRW to identify CSOs that do not have a permit so they can be regularised and put into the improvement programme. But there is more to do, and that is why I'm supporting the proposed Bill set out by Alun Davies. There needs to be more of an onus on water companies to take steps to ensure that the release of sewage is an exception rather than the norm. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I just want to contribute to this debate as Chair of the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, just to take the opportunity to inform the Senedd of the committee's recent work in this area.
The frequency of sewage spills and their impact on the environment and public health is an area, as we've heard, of serious public concern. And in response to this concern, and on the back of significant developments in England, as we've heard in the opening remarks, the committee decided to hold a short inquiry on storm overflows.
The purpose of our inquiry was to better understand the extent of sewage spills in Wales and to look at the action being taken by water companies, by regulators and, of course, by the Welsh Government to try and reduce them. The committee is in the process of finalising its report at present, which we will publish later this month. And while I wouldn't want to pre-empt the findings of the report, I'd like to highlight some of the issues that we covered during our inquiry.
Storm overflows should operate infrequently and in exceptional weather conditions only. But, of course, as we've heard, that is not the case at the moment. Instead of that, we hear regular reports of sewage spills in rivers across Wales, and the latest data shows that sewage was discharged into our rivers more than 105,000 times in 2020 alone—105,000 times in one year. And that does suggest, of course, that there is a significant problem.
But what's being done to address this? Water companies were keen to highlight the fact, of course, that sewage spills from storm overflows are not the main cause of river pollution in Wales. And while that is true, we shouldn't use that as an excuse to not respond strongly to this problem. And regardless of their contribution to poor river health, sewage spills are at an unacceptable level.
Now, during our inquiry, we heard reports of improvements in transparency around storm overflows in recent years following the introduction of event duration monitoring and annual reporting. But, again, there is room for further improvement. We touched upon the current regulatory and enforcement regime for storm overflows, including NRW's approach to investigating incidents of sewage pollution. Now, NRW must be able to respond promptly and effectively to all cases of river pollution, regardless of their source, and we know from recent experience that that simply isn't the case.
We heard the Welsh Government and its partners have established a dedicated taskforce to consider how best to tackle the impact of storm overflows, and this, of course, is a very welcome development. The taskforce will be publishing a road map for storm overflows shortly, and then there will be an action plan followingin the coming months.
Will these steps be enough to address the problem? Well, only time will tell, but the public has made its position clear on this, and it wants to see a significant and urgent improvement. And, as a committee, we will be keeping this under review to ensure that the Welsh Government and the water companies and the regulators are all delivering, not only to protect our environment, but also to protect public health.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I'm grateful to the Member for Blaenau Gwent for bringing forward this Member's legislative proposal, as I myself had an incredibly similar MLP on improving inland water qualities here in Wales. And it's reassuring to know that, while there may be potential disagreement over the semantics and finer points of the policy, it is, in fact, an issue that does generate cross-party support. And as he so eloquently said in opening this debate, it hasn't escaped his attention that there are similarities between his legislative proposal and that of the UK Government's Environment Bill, which sees a duty to ensure water companies secure a progressive reduction in the adverse impacts of discharges from storm overflows. I think it's encouraging that, when there is a good idea, regardless of which side of the political divide it comes from, it is acknowledged as such, and I'm sure Members in this Siambr will be aware of the repeated emphasis that no one side has a monopoly on good ideas, and, therefore, I will be voting in favour of this proposal.
I'd like to take the opportunity, like the Member for Ynys Môn, to pay tribute to Surfers Against Sewage for their work in highlighting and combating the discharge of sewage into the sea at beaches across Wales. Many Members may be aware of the targeted e-mails to elected Members when a combined sewer overflow—a CSO—has discharged sewage into a water at a specific location. Surfers Against Sewage have estimated that, between 1 October 2020 and 30 September 2021, 5,517 sewage discharge notifications were issued by water companies warning of sewage pollution impacting designated bathing waters in England and Wales. Of these, 3,328 discharge notifications were issued during the bathing season of 15 May to 30 September. So, based on the widely accepted advice not to swim in sewage-polluted waters for 48 hours following a discharge, this means 16 per cent of swimmable days during the bathing season have been lost due to sewage pollution events.
It would also be remiss of me, as shadow rural affairs Minister, not to mention agriculture and agricultural pollution. It is my belief that for too long the agricultural sector has been unfairly targeted as the sole and lone polluter of our waterways. The industry wants to improve and do better by the environment and by our waterways, but it is not they alone who are responsible for water pollution incidents. So, that's another reason why I lend my support to this proposal, as it aims to reduce the sewage discharges in our waterways, which, I believe, will bring about positive improvements to the quality of water, our environment and to public health. Diolch.

I call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. As all Members have said, there's been a lot of media coverage recently about water quality and sewage discharges into waterways, and, as Alun pointed out in his submission, the UK Government has legislated to set targets for water companies in England to reduce these. But there is a widespread perception that this is the main cause of poor water quality, but, actually, as most people have acknowledged in the Chamber today, numerous factors contribute to poor water quality, including agricultural pollution, private drainage misconnections, septic tank overflows and a variety of other issues.
I've recently met with—in fact, it was Monday evening that I met with—Ofwat, and they've told me that 35 water bodies have been identified where intermittent sewage discharges are partially contributing to the reason for not achieving good ecological status under the Water Environment (Water Framework Directive) (England and Wales) Regulations 2017, and they are also failing for other reasons. So, Ofwat is going to be conducting a review of how many of the combined sewage outlets were discharged, and, if so, were they discharged in combination with a storm event or another river spate event and, if so, why, and, if not, why not. So, it will be very interesting to see the outcome of Ofwat's review of whether or not water companies are using correctly the powers that they have in order to use the discharge properly. And just to remind people that the storm overflows at waste water treatment works—there are a lot of acronyms in this, so I'm trying to say them all out—perform an essential role to prevent the works from becoming overwhelmed during periods of heavy rain, which would have the effect of the sewage backing up into domestic properties. So, let's just be clear how important it is that that doesn't happen and the public health issues that that would then incur.
So, Welsh Water does have—. We have two water companies in Wales, just to be clear, and both of them have all of the rights and responsibilities under our environment Act and our future generations Act, some of which is being duplicated in England. But also, some of the—. Alun directly asked me why we didn't go in with the English legislation, and the answer is because we have a much more holistic understanding of what's causing spates in rivers, including some of the catchment area issues, and we're very focused on having as much natural flood protection and natural sewage protection as possible, and not just developing concrete channels to channel the water away towards the sea and so on. So, I'm very keen that we develop solutions that suit the ecology and particular river circumstances in Wales.
But, just to be clear, Dŵr Cymru obviously has the vast majority of the infrastructure in Wales, and they've installed event duration monitoring on 99 per cent of their storm overflow assets and the remainder will have them installed by the end of this year, by next year. All relevant data is available on the website, so you can see exactly what's happened with those. They are required to provide a summary of spill data from their monitors to NRW on an annual basis, and they provide real-time storm overflow alerts all year around at key bathing sites. So, already, in conjunction with Surfers Against Sewage, Dŵr Cymru allows registered users, through the Surfers Against Sewage safer seas campaign, to get real-time information on when a storm overflow begins to operate, how long it operates for and when it stops. So, anyone who wants to go bathing in the rivers can pick that information up, and it is really useful to have that if you're into wild water swimming, and I should declare an interest and say I definitely am into that. So, I have an acute understanding of the need to understand what exactly is happening.
And just to be clear, that should not happen unless the river is in spate, so in the middle of a big storm like a few of the ones we've had over the last few weeks. And that river would not be suitable for swimming in if it was in spate. You would not want to see people trying to go wild water swimming in a river that's in spate, that's coming up above its banks and so on. So, those are the circumstances, and only then should the storm overflows be being used. So, that's what the Ofwat investigation is going to be looking at to see whether those two things are in conjunction.
We also work closely with NRW to monitor and, where necessary, improve water quality of rivers across Wales. Dirprwy Lywydd, we have a very large number of things that we're doing, which I will run over my time if I try to read out, but included in them are the nutrient management boards that we have set up for various rivers, the SAC rivers, in Wales. We do have a piece of work going on with NRW to understand exactly how many incidents they attend—they attend the great majority of pollution incidents—how much the unit cost for that is, and what we can do to improve that so that all incidents reported by the public are attended. But, even when attending and an instant sample has been taken, it has not always been possible to identify the offender of the pollution incident, even where we've got relevant samples collected immediately. So, it is important to make sure that we have a whole series of measures in place to make sure that pollution incidents don't occur in the first place, as well as that we have sewers that are fit for purpose.
The other thing to say is that we have a large number of other things that we're looking to do. So, I know that the Conservatives are very keen to see this water quality done, and I welcome that, but of course one of the things that we're doing is including our underwater drainage system work in this, where we're getting all our new housing developments to put in that underwater drainage. The whole purpose of that is to prevent those sewers from overflowing back into the sewers that were built in Victorian times and not built for the numbers of houses that are on them. So, again, as my colleague Lee Waters said a number of times earlier in questions, you can't separate these things out. We have a climate emergency, it is causing extreme weather events, the extreme weather events need to be coped with inside our sewage system, inside our housing developments, inside our commercial developments, and at the waste water treatment works.
So, Alun, I'm going to be bringing forward legislation later on. I'm very happy to work with you on it to make sure that we do legislate for our sustainable drainage and waste water management systems and that we put those drainage and waste water management plans and we put those on a statutory footing. I absolutely intend to do that during this Senedd term. But the issue is that we have to do that inside the holistic framework that we need to control both pollution incidents and sewage outflow incidents along our rivers, to make sure that we capture both of those, and that—forgive the terrible cliché—upstream of that, inside the housing and commercial developments that we put in place, we have the right drainage and sewage solutions in place for those in the first place, so we're not overloading the system in the first place. Diolch.

I call on Alun Davies to reply to the debate.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm grateful to all Members who've participated in our debate, or our conversation, actually—it felt more like a conversation between individuals rather than a more formal debate. I'm grateful to Janet Finch-Saunders for the way in which she described some of the impacts of plastic waste, and it played straight into some of the points that were made by Mike Hedges, talking about the importance of an ecosystem within a river, and to look at it then in the way that the Minister suggested, in a holistic sense.
When we debate and we discuss these matters together, the points made by Rhun ap Iorwerth in terms of the monitoring—. I do agree with you, very much so, that we need to look at how we monitor and we understand the impact of human activities in the widest sense on the water ecosystem, and we need to do that through the year to have the understanding of that whole impact on the ecosystem. I understand, and I'm familiar, clearly, with the Usk and the Wye, as you'd imagine, Peter, and one of the really, really traumatic issues I look at sometimes is the impact on the Wye at the moment. I think the Wye and Usk Foundation provided us with a route-map for how we manage water quality over a period of time. I'm not sure where we've gone wrong on that, and I would like to look again at that. I hope that the Minister will be able to work with Llyr and the committee on the undertakings she's given this afternoon, because, as Sam Kurtz pointed out quite rightly, there is at times a lot more that unites us than defends us—divides us, sorry.
Deputy Presiding Officer, in closing, I was reminded during the debate of a walk I took with the Member for Pontypridd and the Member for Ogmore along the Taff in Ponty, and we spoke about how the town was turning again to the river, and, in the conversation we had, I repeated an observation from a friend of mine in Tredegar who mentioned that, as the industrial revolution took hold in the development of our Valleys communities particularly, we turned our backs on our rivers. The rivers were put into culverts or the rivers were tarmacked over or concreted over and developed and forgotten about. The towns and the people turned their backs on the river. I hope, Minister, that that isn't what we would do here today. What you said in replying to the motion, to the debate, about the holistic approach is exactly the point that I think would unite the Chamber in support of the work that you're doing, and I hope that, over the coming Senedd, we will be able to see the legislation—

You need to conclude now.

Alun Davies AC: —that you suggested, Minister, and I hope that the relevant committee, in taking forward this work, will be able to recommend to this Senedd that we enact that legislation, and together all of us deliver the sort of framework that we require to take care of our rivers for future generations. Thank you very much.

The proposal is to note the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Making Saint David's Day a bank holiday

We move now to item 6, Welsh Conservatives debate, making St David's Day a bank holiday. I call on Tom Giffard to move the motion.

Motion NDM7932 Darren Millar, Lesley Griffiths, Siân Gwenllian, Jane Dodds
Supported by Natasha Asghar, Peter Fox
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Believes that Saint David’s Day should be abank holiday.

Motion moved.

Tom Giffard AS: Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I start by wishing you and everyone in this Chamber a very happy St David's Day? I am not a day late; I'm 364 days early instead. [Laughter.] There you go.
It's a real honour for me to open this Welsh Conservative debate today, tabled in the name of Darren Millar, and today's debate is simply one line, and it's that this Senedd
'Believes that Saint David's Day should be a bank holiday.'
To that end, I'm delighted to see that Members from Plaid Cymru, the Labour Party and Jane Dodds have all co-submitted this motion too. I really hope that the result of this debate today will be a true cross-party consensus on making our national day a bank holiday.
On that point—and I really didn't want to make a party political point today, but I felt I had to respond—I was really disappointed to see the education Minister yesterday in the media say that the Welsh Government had a long-standing campaign and that he was delighted to see the Welsh Conservatives lend their support. I remind the Minister—and it's disappointing that he's not here—that the Welsh Conservatives here in the Senedd have been calling for it for over a decade. [Interruption.] Well, I was very interested to see how long standing that Welsh Government support had been, so I looked back through the Record of Proceedings and I noted that, in 2018, Julie James, who was in Government at that time, said in a Plenary meeting, and I quote,
'I don't think we have any plans at all to make St David's Day a national public holiday'.
That was four years ago, so I'm delighted that the Welsh Government is now supporting the Welsh Conservatives' long-standing campaign. But, nevertheless, in the spirit of cross-party co-operation, I digress. But it's not only the 60 of us sat in this Chamber and on Zoom who think St David's Day should be a bank holiday, this is something that Welsh people support too. Not only did 10,000 people recently sign a petition calling for St David's Day to become a bank holiday, but a BBC Wales poll showed that 87 per cent of people in Wales also supported the idea.
We also know there are significant economic benefits to the day becoming a bank holiday. According to the Centre for Economics and Business Research, retail sales are traditionally boosted by 15 per cent for a bank holiday, with hospitality and catering boosted by 20 per cent. And, after facing tough measures and trying to bounce back from the pandemic, wouldn't it be a welcome change for these industries to have that long-term added benefit to them as well? There would be huge economic benefits for Wales if it were to happen. A 2018 study found that giving a bank holiday gave UK small shops an average extra boost of £253 in profit. That could boost the Welsh economy by millions of pounds. And, in 2019, before coronavirus struck, two bank holidays gave a boost of £118 million to small and medium-sized businesses in the UK.
And I think there are huge cultural benefits too, and a bank holiday on our national day gives us the opportunity to promote Wales to the rest of the world. Several organisations have already given their staff a St David's Day bank holiday, including Snowdonia National Park Authority. I believe that celebrations of this day shouldn't be just limited to those people, but all people across Wales. I also think that this bank holiday would be a fitting way to celebrate our heritage and our culture, alongside that economic and tourism boost—giving that industry a well-earned boost after the pandemic. Public holidays allow people to have additional recreational time, which typically helps create a positive impact on tourism and hospitality, and it would be a really welcome stimulus to the tourism industry, as bank holidays add around £50 million to tourism alone for the UK economy.
The Welsh Conservatives believe that a St David's Day bank holiday would draw thousands of visitors to our country to mark our special day, providing the Welsh economy and tourism with that big boost. And it works: a Scottish Parliament consultation found that respondents were supportive of the idea that the St Andrew's Day bank holiday boosted tourism in Scotland. St David's Day being made into a bank holiday is a fitting way to show the culture and history to the world. Campaigns such as Love Wales, Love Taste are helping to champion St David's Day across Wales and the rest of the UK, to celebrate Welsh food and drink. [Interruption.] I'm sitting next to the Member for the Vale of Clwyd, who is a keen advocate of the Denbigh plum. [Laughter.] There we go. It's nice for someone else to get that in the Record of Proceedings for a change.
We should be celebrating all that Wales has to offer and allow for as many people as possible to experience Wales's rich culture and history, and having a bank holiday would only help to champion those values. Yesterday, St David's Day was celebrated across the world by the Welsh diaspora. The Wales in London Society hosted a dinner at the Guildhall; the New York Welsh society celebrated at the Liberty NYC bar, in the shadow of the Empire State Building; and the Kansai St David's Society in Osaka, Japan, are hosting a week of virtual events that celebrate Wales. After the impact of COVID disruptions, isn't it great to see that celebrations are finally getting back to normal after a lengthy break, both in Wales and across the world? St David's Day is the perfect opportunity to enhance our country's global reputation, forging links with a wide range of people from all corners of the world.
People all across Wales should be able to enjoy a bank holiday on St David's Day, and it would be a wonderful moment for our country to celebrate and unite around our heritage and our culture. Those in Scotland and Northern Ireland have a bank holiday to celebrate their patron saints, with the Scottish Parliament making it a bank holiday in 2006, and the Northern Ireland Assembly in 2000. And I now believe that it's time for Wales to follow suit and have the same for our patron saint.

Tom Giffard AS: But it is important that we bear in mind that it's not the only reason to have a bank holiday, that others have them too, but that it's a day when we can consider our culture and our heritage. This could be a day when we consider what it means to be Welsh in the year 2022. And, for me, the answer isn't cawl, rugby or dragons, but a modern Wales, and communities across the nation—communities who come together when times are tough. The Wales that I recognise is the Wales that dealt with coronavirus by going shopping on behalf of their neighbours; the Wales that I recognise is one that establishes community groups to help each other with things like mental health, for example; and the Wales that I recognise is one that stands united with the people of Ukraine. Of course, we are still the land of bards and song, but we are also a land of empathy.

Tom Giffard AS: So, I'm really proud to be Welsh and I know that Wales has so much to offer the world, and I'm relentlessly optimistic about its future too. And I'll end by quoting our Prime Minister, who said yesterday,
'In short it is Wales and the Welsh who make the UK what it is today.'
And I couldn't agree more.

Rhys ab Owen AS: I thank the Conservatives for bringing this debate before us, but I'd like to start today by taking you back on a history tour—not back to the age of David and the early saints, but far enough back to a time when Tom Giffard was wearing the short trousers of primary school and Gareth Davies was eating the Denbigh plum on his mother's lap, when Jack Sargeant had no beard and when I had a lot more hair on my head. Yes, 22 years ago to the first St David's Day at the National Assembly for Wales. In the Chamber in Tŷ Hywel, my father led a debate proposing that St David's Day become a bank holiday. He said this in opening the debate 22 years and a day ago:
'St David’s Day is more than a celebration. It is our national day and the day when we, the people of Wales, at home and the world over, can celebrate our past and present and charge our batteries for future endeavours.'
The proposal received unanimous support a lot longer ago than a decade, Tom Giffard. It had the unanimous support of the Assembly, support from all parties, including the Welsh Conservatives. But, in 2002, following delays and the dragging of feet, Paul Murphy, the Secretary of State, rejected the Assembly's request. And in 2005, with the Assembly now in its second term, and with Peter Hain as Secretary of State, my father asked for an update from Rhodri Morgan, and Rhodri's answer was:

Rhys ab Owen AS: 'Westminster has rejected the Assembly's request, but negotiations are still ongoing.' Well, I don't know if they're still ongoing—

Rhys ab Owen AS: —now, but they haven't been very successful so far, have they?
And again in 2021, following a request by Gwynedd Council, the proposal to give Wales a bank holiday was rejected by the Westminster Government. Deja vu, groundhog day—call it what you like—but we've been here before. Despite the united voice of the Assembly and the Senedd on this issue, we've not made any progress in 22 years. Westminster Governments of every stripe—Labour, Conservative and even Liberal Democrats—and none of them have designated St David's Day as a bank holiday. Five Prime Ministers, seven Secretaries of State, all have said 'no'. This is not a partisan problem. We see today, as we saw 22 years ago, unanimous cross-party support in this Senedd. The problem is Westminster. Time and time again, we are being ignored.

Rhys ab Owen AS: If the United Kingdom is a union of equals, as the muscular unionists and the not-so-muscular unionists like to throw around, then there would be parity between the nations—an equal opportunity for us to celebrate, to dance, to sing and to rest on the day of our patron saint. And as Tom Giffard said, during the past 22 years, Scotland and Northern Ireland have created extra bank holidays to celebrate their patron saints, and I hope our English neighbours will do the same soon. We're not asking for—.

Alun Davies AC: Will you take an intervention?

Rhys ab Owen AS: Of course.

Alun Davies AC: I hesitate to stop you in full flow, but you say it's not the parties that are the problem, but Westminster. Would you therefore agree with me that rather than pass motions and send these requests to Westminster, these powers should be here for us to determine and for us to decide?

Rhys ab Owen AS: Funny you say that, Alun, as my next sentence will be, 'For Wales needs to be able to decide when we have our own bank holidays.' [Laughter.]

Rhys ab Owen AS: Instead of that, we're like Oliver Twist, aren't we, holding out our begging bowls, hoping for a few crumbs. Well, we should not have to rely on the charity of another Government to ensure that the day of our patron saint is a bank holiday. It was lovely to hear Tom Giffard speaking Welsh on Radio Cymru yesterday morning, and lovely to hear you speak Welsh today—stick with it, friend, do it again—but I regretted the fact that you then said on Radio Cymru that a bank holiday from May should be moved to 1 March. Well, more bank holidays are what are needed, Tom, not the status quo; creating equality with our friends in Scotland and Northern Ireland. There are 11 in Scotland, 10 in Northern Ireland, but only eight in England and Wales. Why? It doesn't make any sense.
I believe that the Welsh Government can follow in the footsteps of Gwynedd Council and designate a de facto bank holiday here in Wales. The leadership of Gwynedd Council has led to Snowdonia national park, Aberystwyth Town Council and a number of third sector organisations giving their workers a bank holiday.
Let me say that a lot has changed since the St David's Day debate in 2000, constitutionally and, of course, for us, personally—happy times and sad times; times of gain and times of loss. After all, 22 years is a long time. During that time, my father—.

Rhys ab Owen AS: I'll finish with this now, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Rhys ab Owen AS: During that time, my father has lost the ability to speak entirely, but his words, and through them his voice, remain. He ended his speech by quoting the last words of our patron saint,
'Brothers and sisters, rejoice and keep your faith and your belief, and do the little things.'
My father, Deputy Presiding Officer, went further by saying this:
'Note the words "byddwch lawen", which mean celebrate, be joyful and, who knows, maybe even take the day off? Who are we to ignore the great man’s wishes?'
Well, friends, 22 years on, not only have the wishes of the great man, St David, been ignored, but also, time and time again—

You do need to conclude now.

Rhys ab Owen AS: —the unanimous voice of the Assembly and the Senedd. I sincerely hope, friends, that we will not be back here in another 22 years having the same debate. Thank you very much.

Jack Sargeant AC: To start, I am a proud Welshman.

Jack Sargeant AC: As a proud Welshman, I do echo the words of Rhys ab Owen and his father in what he just said there. This is a really welcome debate today, and it is great to see that the motion is laid by all parties of the Senedd. I do hope that the UK Government are not only listening, but that they are listening with an intention to make sure that we can make this decision here in our Parliament.
Tom Giffard, you're right: we don't have enough bank holidays, as Rhys ab Owen echoed. What better day to have an extra bank holiday than on St David's Day? It's a great opportunity to celebrate Wales, but also, for many, just to get some time back.
But it's worth remembering, Dirprwy Lywydd, that not everyone gets a bank holiday off, and we should be looking further at improving ways to improve their work-life balance as well. Members will know that I'm a keen advocate of a four-day week, because I recognise that giving people time back offers a benefit in productivity. We recognise that we work the longest hours in Europe, yet we have a lower productivity rate than most.
For those wondering in these conversations today whom to thank in the past for those bank holidays that we have here in the United Kingdom, it's the trade unions. My message today to Members across the Chamber and to the people of Wales is to join a union; join the fight in solidarity with our comrades for a better work-life balance.
Deputy Presiding Officer, I won't test your patience, as others have in this debate, but can I please finish on this comment by endorsing our bold leader—our bold First Minister—and his message just yesterday, where he called for random acts of Welshness? By that, he meant good deeds. Spread the act of Welshness andspread the act of kindness, whether that's eating a leek, planting a Denbigh plum tree, drinking some Wrexham Lager or whatever it is you might do. But, please, spread that Welshness and spread that kindness, friends, on St David's Day and every single day across the year. Diolch yn fawr.

Samuel Kurtz MS: My thanks to Darren Millar for tabling this afternoon's motion. Members of the Siambr who follow me on social media will know that this is a cause that I am incredibly passionate about. Like Rhys ab Owen, I sincerely hope we're not still here in 22 years' time debating this very topic. However, I don't wish to use my brief remarks this afternoon to dwell on the politics. I'd rather talk about the many things that make Wales and the Welsh great and worthy of a national bank holiday, to celebrate and recognise the enormous contribution that our people, culture, and history have made to not only the United Kingdom but to the world.
Firstly, our culture and our sense of hiraeth, our nation's belonging and our longing for our nation, the notion that no matter how far from Wales you are your ears will prick up when you hear a word or two of Welsh or a Welsh accent. You'll inevitably have mutual friends or acquaintances. I saw this first-hand when, as a teenager, I visited the Gambia in Africa. One morning, I heard 'bore da' from one of the local Gambian tour guides, Mustapha Bojang, who would end up showcasing his beautiful country to us, and he had friends in Saundersfoot. And from our eisteddfodau and cymanfa ganus or even the Urdd's jamborees, our history of storytelling, singing and of coming together to revel in our culture is a cornerstone of what makes Wales great.
Speaking of 'great' brings me on to my second point, which is our sport, a source of social cohesion and national ambition. Wales is the homeland of an undisputed boxing champion, a Tour de France winner, Grand Slam victors, Grand Slam darts winners, and champion Olympic gold medallists. Our sport is a tool for tackling poor mental health and a leverage for inward investment. Without doubt, sport has transformed lives and enhanced communities across Wales. And whilst we may be a small nation, we always seem to find ourselves punching well above our weight and defying the odds—not bad for a nation with just over 3 million people. But this brings me back to that sense of cohesion, belonging and community. Our sporting heroes are amongst us here in Wales, not faraway idols. I believe we're closer to our sports superstars than many other countries, and so we share in their victories and their defeats more so than some other nations.
This brings me on to my third point, our community. Speaking today and having witnessed our response to the war and conflict in Ukraine, it is unquestionable that Wales in 2022 is an open, tolerant and compassionate nation, whose humanity and empathy exist beyond our own borders and communities. And that is exactly what makes Wales so incredibly special. Our spirit of community is entrenched in every institution, every tradition, and every practice. It marks the very foundations of this very Senedd, and it is a characteristic that each and every one of us in this Siambr share.
This brings me on to my fourth point, our long and rich history of Welsh men and women serving in our armed forces. We are all aware of our deep historical tradition and commitment in the Welsh armed forces, a tradition that has seen the Royal Welsh battlegroup deployed to Estonia to support our European and NATO allies in efforts to support Ukraine and fight back against aggression. As well as those serving, Wales is a proud home to a number of veterans, and just yesterday it was announced by the UK Government that Colonel James Phillips was appointed Wales's first ever veterans commissioner, someone who our veterans can rely on to enhance support and scrutinise Government policy.

Samuel Kurtz MS: And finally, my fifth point, our language. Everyone speaks the language with pride, and that's the exact point: the Welsh language belongs to everyone and it plays a crucial role in our heritage, our history and our culture. Yesterday, I stood here and talked about how a nation's identity is not only based on culture and tradition, but also on community.

Samuel Kurtz MS: As I finish, I reflect on the words of Laugharne's most famous son, Dylan Thomas, who said of Wales, 'The land of my fathers? My fathers can have it!' Dare I say it, Dirprwy Lywydd, the Welsh poet is as wrong now as he was then. Indeed, Wales is the best place on earth, and I believe it is only right that we have a national holiday to reflect and recognise that. Diolch.

Jane Dodds AS: May I thank the Conservatives for bringing this issue forward, and thank Tom for opening this debate?It was wonderful to hear you make a contribution in Welsh. Thank you for that.

Jane Dodds AS: We can have a little competition, I think, between ourselves in the Welsh liberals and Welsh Labour, because bank holidays were actually first introduced in 1871 by Sir John Lubbock, who was a Liberal MP who drafted the Bank Holidays Bill. However, I would pay tribute to the trade unions, who have absolutely embedded in our culture that sense that we need a work-life balance. COVID, as we've all learned, haven't we, has actually made us rethink our lives in terms of what's important to us, and maybe what's not so important to us now, which is about not working our socks off, but having that time with our family and our friends and our communities is actually what's important. As we've heard—and again, Jack has mentioned this—it's really important we remember all of those people who work through bank holidays and through weekends as well. We need to pay tribute to them—our care workers, our shop workers, our factory workers, those working in health. We need to make sure that they are properly supported and compensated as well.
We all remember, those of us who were at school, those eisteddfods, those Dydd Gŵyl Dewis where we would dress up. For me, my hat, when I was about six years old, was actually bigger than me. We all remember those eisteddfods that we would have throughout the day as children, and we would be celebrating Dydd Gŵyl Dewi. That's what we need to think about in terms of us moving forward. We've heard that Wales is the most amazing country. We've got the Welsh language, we've got plygains. Don't forget, in mid and west Wales, we have those celebrations of plygain, which is about singing. We've got sheep. We've got sheep that beat any other country in the world. We've got our culture. We've got sport, we've got so much more. We need to make sure that the world and this country knows that we are proud to be Welsh, and that's why we need a Welsh bank holiday that is about St David's Day. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: St David is our country's patron saint, whose good deeds and actions continue to inspire many across our whole society. St David’s Day also marks a day of national festivity across Wales and in Welsh communities around the world. Creating a bank holiday to mark this occasion would allow our communities time to reflect and celebrate our history and culture and the important role both have played in the wider formation and culture of our United Kingdom.
Given that this is something that is already done in both Scotland and Northern Ireland, it is only fitting that Wales should be given the same opportunity. Whilst we are undeniably a family of nations, it is also right that each member is given this opportunity to cherish and celebrate its own history. In fact, many organisations, such as the Snowdonia National Park Authority, already do give their staff a day off to mark St David’s Day. For the first time this year, St David's Commercial, a property business in the constituency of my colleague Darren Millar, has given their staff the day off. So, that shows that businesses are now starting to acknowledge this.
Communities from all four corners of our society hold grand events and activities to mark the day. In Cardiff, there was a parade through the city followed by the singing of the Welsh national anthem. In Denbigh, local shops redecorated to mark the event. Flintshire has been holding a fortnight of activities in celebration of St David’s Day. I know that the deputy mayor of Llandudno attended a parade in Colwyn Bay, again in the constituency of my colleague Darren Millar. So, it is only right that a bank holiday is created to support these ongoing efforts and also to encourage more communities to mark this important national date.
There is also a compelling economic case for this bank holiday. As I'm sure many Members are aware, small and medium businesses, especially those operating in our valuable tourism, hospitality and retail sectors, face considerable challenges during the early months of the year. A bank holiday on 1 March would provide a warmly welcomed economic boost during a challenging financial quarter. According to a service that tracks card payments, two bank holidays in 2019 gave a boost of £118 million to British small and medium businesses.
Additionally, the Centre for Economics and Business Research claims that retail sales are traditionally boosted by around 15 per cent on a bank holiday, while hospitality sees a greater increase of 20 per cent compared to a weekend. As such, providing a bank holiday earlier on in the year would provide a much-needed economic boost to businesses, these businesses that form the backbone of our Welsh economy. And, as our colleague Jane Dodds has said, it will specifically support industries that have been so badly hit by the pandemic. Therefore, it is my great pleasure to add my support to this motion, which requests that the UK Government mark St David's Day as a bank holiday. Diolch.

Natasha Asghar AS: I fully support the proposal that St David's Day should be a bank holiday here in Wales, and I'd like to thank my colleague Tom Giffard for leading the debate here in the Senedd today. A bank holiday on our national day will bring our nation together to celebrate our history, our achievements, our distinct culture and our diversity.
As someone born and bred as well as living in Newport, you may not find this surprising, however I'm sure that my late father would have been supporting this motion today, just as Jack Sargeant's would have as well. My father was not born in Wales, but he chose to make Wales his home, and perhaps was the biggest advocate of Wales that I've ever met. Aside from that, he felt it has immense potential in all aspects of life, from the economy to education and transport as well. He wanted to create a better Wales for everyone and was committed to bringing our diverse communities together. A bank holiday on St David's Day would give people all across Wales, whether they were born here or not, the chance to unite in appreciation and celebration of the place that we all call home. As Jane Dodds said, it would give us a chance to pay tribute to our heroes and, as International Women's Day is coming up, our sheroes from Wales. As Janet Finch-Saunders stated, it would be a time to reflect on and celebrate our history.
I know that one of the arguments put forward against this proposal is the cost to the economy. However, let's be clear: this motion is not about creating a new bank holiday, it's about moving one existing bank holiday, either May Day or the spring bank holiday, from May to March, so we can celebrate our patron saint's day. As Rhys ab Owen said earlier, other devolved nations in the UK already are doing this. The Northern Ireland Assembly made St Patrick's Day a bank holiday back in 2000, with the Scottish Parliament doing the same for St Andrew's Day in 2006. Why should the people of Wales be denied the same privilege? There is widespread support amongst the public for such a move. A BBC Wales poll in 2006 actually stated that 87 per cent support for the idea was there, and over 10,000 people had signed a recent petition in favour of the proposal.
It's also pleasing that this motion has received support from all parties represented in the Senedd today. It would also send a strong signal to Welsh expatriates and those who are proud of their Welsh heritage who live in other parts of the UK, or who live abroad, that they can celebrate with us on this very special day every year. There are Welsh societies in places as widespread as London, as Sam Kurtz mentioned in his contribution, Africa, New York, and, as Tom Giffard said, in Osaka as well. It was great to see the son of the Republican Senator for Utah and former candidate for President of the United States, Mitt Romney, wearing the Wales rugby shirt before the match against England. This clearly demonstrates his pride in his Welsh heritage on his mother's side, Ann Romney being the granddaughter of a miner from the Valleys.
Therefore, Deputy Presiding Officer, the power to make St David's Day a bank holiday does not reside here, but with the UK Government at Westminster. This motion, if passed, would enable us to work constructively with Westminster to secure a St David's Day bank holiday for Wales. I urge the Senedd to speak with one voice to bring this change about. Thank you very much.

I call on the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution, Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. What's happened in Ukraine over the last week has caused huge concern. It's emphasised how important it is to be able to celebrate your nationhood, and what better opportunity for us to celebrate here than on St David's Day? This is how we celebrate that we are a nation that supports other nations too. We demonstrate that we stand shoulder to shoulder with those of other nations across the world. Yesterday, seeing the Welsh daffodil alongside the Ukrainian sunflower showed that we insist on our place as a nation among other nations of the world. And the Welsh Government is proud to do this. Every year, we promote Wales and its special culture with various activities around St David's Day. Every year, the issue of creating a public holiday on St David's Day arises. Members can be assured of the view of the Welsh Government on this issue. It is something that we have been arguing for since the beginning of devolution, more or less.

Mick Antoniw AC: There is widespread public support, as indeed there is across the parties in this Chamber, for making St David's Day a holiday here in Wales. However, the creation of bank holidays in England and Wales is not a devolved matter. In order to create St David's Day as a bank holiday, 1 March would need to be added to the list of existing bank holidays included in the Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971. This is currently within the gift of the UK Government.
Many Members will be aware that we have, on more than one occasion, asked the UK Government either to create St David's Day as a public holiday or to transfer the power to enable us to do it ourselves. Unfortunately, our requests have been refused—

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Will the Minister give way?

Mick Antoniw AC: Please.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you for giving way, and I associate myself with the remarks you made in your opening remarks as well, as I'm sure we all do.
Would he be interested to know that on 1 March 2016, a Bill was presented on the floor of Parliament by Mark Williams, who was then the MP for Ceredigion? It was called the Devolution (Bank Holidays) (Wales) Bill. I was proud to be one of the co-supporters of that, along with Members of Plaid Cymru, Liberals and other Members of the House. We were unable on that occasion to actually secure any Conservative support, but it sounds like we're getting there. If we're unsuccessful in persuading the UK Government to actually bring forward their own proposal, would he then seek cross-party support, not just in this Chamber, but actually with the support of colleagues of Conservative Members, to devolve the powers to Wales?

Mick Antoniw AC: I certainly would support that proposal and, of course, we do recall that it was one of the things that we requested in the 2017 Wales Act that was declined. I will come to that perhaps in a moment, but I thank you for the point that you've made, and I'm sure it represents the cross-party feeling in this Chamber, and I believe, actually, across Wales.
Whilst Scotland and Northern Ireland, of course, both enjoy the privilege of being able to celebrate their national days with a public holiday, we're at a loss as to why that privilege is denied to us. There is no logical reason for our request not to be granted, but there are plenty of good reasons why it should. A public holiday would enable people, both residents and visitors, to celebrate and learn more about the rich cultural heritage of our nation, it would encourage tourism, potentially boosting the economy, particularly in those parts of Wales whose economy is largely dependent on visitors, and it would provide a much-needed opportunity for leisure and relaxation, just as we turn the corner of the seasons and move into spring. And it is worth remembering, of course, that the declaration of a bank holiday has no legal effect. It does not mean that shops and businesses have to shut on that day. However, there's also nothing to stop organisations from closing or having a half day on St David's Day, which would have a similar effect as creating a bank holiday on St David's Day. That would be a matter for organisations to determine themselves. Indeed, Gwynedd County Council has already given public servants across the county a day off on 1 March.
For our part, as Welsh Government, we are happy to reiterate and confirm our wholehearted support for the creation of St David's Day as a bank holiday and we will continue to assert the case for the devolution of powers to the Senedd and to Welsh Ministers to make it so. And as soon as the Conservative UK Government devolve this responsibility to us, we can proceed with making St David's Day a bank holiday.

I call on Peter Fox to reply to the debate.

Peter Fox AS: Diolch, Deputy Llywydd, and many thanks to everybody who's contributed to this really important debate today. And can I thank my colleague Tom Giffard for opening up and for putting me to shame, because I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to speak Welsh as Tom did? And I congratulate you on your progress and I hope to emulate you some time in the future.
Countries right across the world rightly celebrate their immense pride in their identities. One way many of us do this is by celebrating our patron saint, as we've already heard. Perhaps one of the most successful dates in the calendar is St Patrick's Day, and when I mention this date, what comes to your mind? Because what springs to my mind is the very best of Irish culture and all that it conjures up, from music to dance to greenery to happiness—[Interruption.]—and Guinness, indeed. And surprisingly, the success of St Patrick's bank holiday has projected Ireland onto the global stage, where literally millions across the world celebrate Irish culture. Culture propels the very best in a nation, doesn't it, to widen the audience, and this is something that people, rightly, bravely guard? The epitome of what I've just said is the country of Ukraine, which the Counsel General referred to; we've all seen the powerful and emotional scenes of Ukrainians defending their country fiercely. Their identity, their land, their culture and their history is so precious to them that thousands are ready to lay down their lives for their country, such is the strength of identity and pride, and we saw and heard a lot of that yesterday.
Here in Wales our sense of pride and passion is no less. We are blessed with so much, aren't we? Equal to anywhere in the world, our culture, our language and our history, coupled with the beauty of our landscape, our mountains and coast, castles and food, and add to that the red roaring dragon, our sporting heroes and global icons and we can be justly proud. With all these ingredients, the argument for St David's Day being accorded a bank holiday is obvious. In a nutshell, it's a fitting way to celebrate the heritage and culture of Wales, as well as a welcome boost for our businesses. And a BBC poll conducted in 2006, as we've heard already from somebody, showed that 87 per cent supported the idea. And today's debate is unusual, in that the Senedd speaks with one unequivocal voice: St David's Day should be made a bank holiday. As my colleagues have stressed—

Jane Dodds AS: Will you take an intervention, please?

Peter Fox AS: I certainly will do.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you so much for doing that. In light of what you've said and in hearing what Huw Irranca-Davies has also said, I wonder if you and your colleagues will take the message back to your colleagues in Westminster that this is what we want and that you will be powering this through. Diolch.

Peter Fox AS: Well, thank you very much. I'm hoping that many Welsh MPs listen to this today and we will make sure that the voices of all of us are heard loud and clear as we champion this cause even further. Can I thank—[Interruption.] In the spirit of debate, I'll continue to be optimistic.
Thank you for your comment, Tom, and for your depth of introduction again. It was really helpful, just reminding us of the Conservative support for this over many years—indeed, a decade. And thanks, Rhys, for taking us on that history trip of 22 years ago—that important time when your father came and was in this Chamber and was calling for this. I'm sure he'll be proud that you're here talking and sharing the need for this today. I welcome that. And, yes, let's be joyful and let's celebrate this day. Jack, the UK Government needs to listen—we know that and we've got to make that case, because it is important that we have our identity here. And, Sam, I hope you'll be here in 22 years—[Laughter.]—because you're a young man with so much to offer that I'm sure you'll be occupying senior positions here in the future. [Interruption.] And I'm sure that Mustapha Bojang—is that right—will be also proud if he sees you here when he visits Saundersfoot next. And, Jane, you reminded us of that deeper historical journey as well. This is a debate that has been going on for many years, indeed, almost centuries. And, Janet, we need to allow our communities to celebrate—it is so important that they have the opportunity to do this, as others do across the world. And, Natasha, we know that your father, Oscar, would've been passionate today and would've been a passionate supporter, a true Welshman in supporting everything we have here today.
Counsel General, thank you for your words and the support that the Welsh Government continues to provide to try and make this happen. And as I shared, we will, where we can, try to do what we can to make sure that this happens. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? I don't see any objection. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Plaid Cymru Debate: Eating disorders

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths, and amendment 2 in the name of Darren Millar. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

Item 7 is the Plaid Cymru debate on eating disorders. I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move the motion.

Motion NDM7934 Sian Gwenllian
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that Eating Disorders Awareness Week 2022 takes place from 28 February to 6 March 2022.
2. Notes the 'Welsh Government Eating Disorder Service Review 2018' and Beat’s recent 'Welsh Eating Disorder Service Review—3 Years On' report.
3. Believes that improvements in eating disorder services in the last three years have been uneven, continuing the inequity documented by the review.
4. Regrets that treatment for those affected in Wales varies greatly depending on age, diagnosis and location.
5. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) commit to increasing the resources allocated to mental health year on year over the course of the next five years and holding health boards to account over their investment in eating disorders services;
b) publish a new framework for eating disorder services that contains timelines for the achievement of targets, focussing on:
i) early intervention and prevention;
ii) integrated care;
iii) support for families and other carers;
iv) investment in the workforce, including support for staff wellbeing;
c) re-establish and maintain clinical leadership over eating disorder service provision at a national level.
d) fund an eating disorders clinical audit to ensure that all health boards collect and report a standard and comprehensive set of high-quality data.

Motion moved.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Llywydd, and I'm pleased to move this motion formally. It is something that is so very important to many people and families across Wales. At least 60,000 people in Wales suffer some sort of eating disorder. There are a number of different disorders—bulimia, anorexia binge-eating disorder, a number of others—and every one poses some grave challenges to those suffering. It costs lives. Anorexia has the highest mortality rate of any mental health problem. Disorders can lead to all sorts of complications and physical disorders too.
But there is treatment available, and people can recover, having suffered eating disorders. They do recover, and providing the right treatment and the right support at the right time is crucial. Delays in treatment can intensify suffering for the victims and those who care for them. It can lead to much higher costs for the NHS too. So, once again, we're talking about an area where early intervention and early treatment bring benefits on a number of different levels.
It's no coincidence that we've chosen today for this debate—it is Eating Disorders Awareness Week, and the theme of the week this year is increasing understanding of eating disorders within medical training. There are so many people who rely on contact with their GP or with primary care in order to identify the signs of eating disorders, and the beginning of that diagnostic process and leading to treatment. But, on average, there is less than two hours of training provided to medical students in Wales on issues related to eating disorders. There is no doubt that that weakness within the training process has led to delays in treatment for many individuals.
It is good to be able to report that the charity Beat think that they are making ground on this, and that the two medical schools have responded positively to their questions on extending the level of training for the future. And I'm sure that the third full medical school in Bangor will also want to support this initiative.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Back in the spring of 2018, Welsh Government commissioned an independent review of eating disorders services, as they were then, and that review, submitted to the Government in late 2018, found a system geared towards providing care for those who had already become severely ill rather than on early intervention. It found significant variation in the availability and quality of eating disorders treatment across Wales; gaps between services rather than care that was integrated; often families weren't being informed, weren't being supported or empowered through the process of treatment.
The review set out an ambitious vision of a world-class service focused on prevention and early intervention, identifying and providing quality treatment before people become severely ill in every part of Wales. So, where are we now? What did Beat find in its three-years-on review? Well, whilst some progress has been made in expanding and improving eating disorder services over that three-year period, Beat would argue that this has been uneven, continuing the inequity documented by that original eating disorders services review. I'll tell you about one young woman who saw her GP in my constituency, and found the GP to be very sympathetic and understanding and eager to help, but who told her, 'Please register where you're at university', because that GP had no faith in the likelihood that her young patient would be able to access support at her home address. And that is totally, totally unacceptable.
The eating disorders services review called for treatment to be accessible at an early stage, with the removal of referral or eligibility criteria. In some areas, new specialist teams based in child and adolescent mental health services had been established, some health boards had developed or expanded adult community eating disorders services. But, in some areas, access to specialist treatment is still restricted to those who have already become severely ill and isn't available for those with certain types of eating disorders, such as binge-eating disorder.
So, our motion today calls specifically for an end to that variation in service provision, another postcode lottery that is putting sufferers in some parts of Wales in particular at a disadvantage. Welsh Government's amendment deletes that, and instead points to a general commitment to continue the improvements of eating disorder services across Wales, and I haven't denied that there have been improvements.
There is reference in the Government's amendment to the need for increased investment. Again, our motion calls for that too, but where the Government's amendment is vague, the motion calls for specific actions to ensure that an increase in mental health funding happens year on year in a five-year drive, as we portray it, to push up the resources available for treatment of eating disorders among other mental health issues.
We call for more to be done to hold health boards to account for their investments in eating disorders, but, crucially, we dig down, we call for the publication of a new framework for eating disorder services, including timelines and targets, and we'll support the Conservative amendment, which addresses the issue of timescales and timely reporting too. We need a clear map, a clear map towards providing that early invention that I said is so important.
There are significant gaps in the data that health boards currently provide on waiting times. There doesn't appear to be a standardised system in place across Wales to consistently measure and report the full waiting time from initial referral, if that referral takes place at all early enough, to the start of specialist treatment.
We need to prioritise prevention too. There needs to be a focus on investing in the workforce. And on integrated care, the eating disorder service review explained that early intervention and evidence-based treatment require an integrated approach with good communication and collaboration between services. In Beat's survey of health and care professionals and volunteers, lack of integrated or collaborative working with other health or social care services and lack of integrated, collaborative working with schools, colleges and universities were commonly identified as restricting the ability of their teams and their services to meet the current demand for eating disorder treatment. There is such a long way to go.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: We'll hear more from my fellow Members on different aspects of what we and Beat and those who are suffering and their families are calling for, and I look forward to hearing further contributions from all parties.
We are agreed here on the principles, we are agreed in the Senedd on the need to prioritise mental health treatment, but, as important as that unity is and as important as positive words and support for principles are, we must also bear in mind that we need to transform services. The words in and of themselves are not enough. Let's use today as an important milestone in the process of transforming services for those who are suffering.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, Lynne Neagle, to formally move amendment 1.

Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths
Delete all after point 2 and replace with:
Recognises the challenge of providing eating disorder services that meet the range of needs; that services have been disproportionately impacted by the pandemic; and that improvements need to be made.
Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) commit to continue the improvement of eating disorder services across Wales, with increased investment to support this;
b) strengthen the clinical leadership required to drive these improvements.

Amendment 1 moved.

Lynne Neagle AC: Formally.

Thank you. And I call now on James Evans to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. James Evans.

Amendment 2—Darren Millar
Add as new sub-point at end of point 5:
establish targets and publish monthly statistics on waiting times for mental health treatment, including issues such as eating disorders.

Amendment 2 moved.

James Evans MS: I move amendment 2. Diolch, Llywydd, and I move the amendment in the name of my colleague Darren Millar. I'd like to thank Plaid Cymru and Rhun for bringing this important debate forward today on eating disorders. This is an issue that affects so many people right across our society. It does not discriminate, and it can affect anyone. This week is Eating Disorders Awareness Week, and it's right that we highlight this problem and do all that we can to help those who are affected by an eating disorder. I just want to pay tribute to my colleague Mark Isherwood, who will be talking later on in this debate, and the work he has done around raising the importance of this topic.
Eating disorders are a serious mental illness and can lead to devastating consequences for those affected. They don't just affect the person, but they have a wider impact on families, health services and the wider society. Around 1.25 million people in the UK have an eating disorder, and we in this place can do what we can today to support them. As Rhun has said, there are many types of eating disorder, including binge eating, bulimia, anorexia and others. Eating disorders are killers, with anorexia having the highest death rate of any mental illness, and one in six people with binge eating disorders trying to take their own life. People suffering with eating disorders more often than not develop serious physical health problems like heart disease, osteoporosis, and their overall quality of life is diminished. However, treatment and recovery is possible and early access to the right care and support can change someone's life. Early intervention provides the best chance for that person to start on the road to recovery. Any delays in receiving treatment and support prolongs the suffering for individuals, their friends and their families. It also increases long-term costs on the NHS. As I've said, early intervention and prevention is better than curing any problem at crisis point. I've set up my own mental health working group since I've been here, and I'm hearing first-hand from young people right across Wales just how many younger people are suffering with eating disorders and that there are far more external influences that are negatively affecting their mental state than many politicians in this Chamber realise.
COVID-19—that has had a huge impact on people affected by eating disorders. A university survey of people with eating disorders conducted in 2020 stated nine out of 10 respondents said their symptoms had gotten worse as a result of the pandemic, and support services, the great work that Beat do, experienced a 300 per cent rise in the number of people reaching out for help. So, we must put more support into those services to help people who require care.
So, what needs to change and what can we do here to help those affected? In the Conservative group, we agree with this motion proposed by Plaid Cymru and we look forward to supporting your motion with our amendment later on, as we need to establish targets, publish monthly statistics on waiting times for mental health treatment, including eating disorders, and we need to provide specialist care in people's communities and not make people travel across the border for the help and support they need, losing their family, friends and support networks.
Llywydd, the Welsh Government amendment, I believe, is not good enough, and it's a shame that they have sought to water down this debate. I think the motion put forward by Plaid Cymru is a very good motion, and it's a shame the Government have done this again. But, wider than this motion, I hope that the Minister, in responding to this debate, can outline what the Government is doing to improve medical training on eating disorders, to ensure that our GPs and medical professionals know how to spot and treat eating disorders, and what wider work the Welsh Government is doing on research to understand more about eating disorders and what causes them.
Today, Members, we have the opportunity to stand with those who are suffering with eating disorders, to say that, 'We support you, and we will do all we can to ensure you get the quality of care you deserve.' I encourage all Members to support the motion later on tonight. Diolch, Llywydd.

Heledd Fychan AS: I'm grateful to Rhun for opening today's debate and outlining why we as a group wanted to table this important motion today. And, as has already been referenced, it's timely that we're able to do so during Eating Disorders Awareness Week, which once again provides a spotlight on an issue that affects so many. I'd also like to put on record my appreciation of the work of Beat, who work tirelessly to raise awareness, as well as providing direct support to those that are suffering.
As has been previously outlined, there are a number of factors that have impacted progress since the review, ranging from limited and uneven investment in eating disorder services, workforce challenges, as well as, of course, the impact of COVID-19. So, the question today is: how can we finally make progress on these issues? In 2009, the Welsh Government published 'Eating Disorders—A Framework for Wales', which helped steer the development of services in the years that followed. The terms of reference for the service review referred to publishing a new framework in 2019, and so far the Welsh Government has only set out initial high-level priorities for eating disorder services. The Welsh Government's 'Together for Mental Health' 2019-2022 strategy commits it to work with service users, carers and health boards to develop a new model of service in response to the recent independent review.
The Welsh Government needs to publish a new framework or model for eating disorder services that contains timelines for the achievement of each milestone, which should focus on early intervention and prevention, integrated care, support for families and other carersand investment in the workforce, including support for staff well-being. The publication of such a framework or model would demonstrate a renewed commitment from the Welsh Government to ensuring that the eating disorder service review shapes future services in Wales. The adoption of an ambitious, long-term vision for eating disorder services would also very likely play a key role in staff recruitment as well as, crucially, retention.
In order to make the implementation of a new framework or service model achievable, changes are needed to ensure sufficient and equitable investment in eating disorder services across Wales. A community child and adolescent mental health services clinician told Beat that, if the Welsh Government wants this development, they need to be very clear and directive to the health boards.
The Welsh Government should specify a minimum spend on eating disorders from the service improvement funding that it allocates to health boards, and hold health boards to account over their investment in eating disorders.
As has been noted, including yesterday in the Chamber, we know that 78 per cent of patients referred to the specialist child and adolescent mental health services are left waiting for over four weeks for their first appointment, and waiting times for mental health services for young people are now the worst on record. These are young people who have been deemed to require urgent, specialist treatment, and yet they’re being made to wait over a month to even be seen. We must have robust provision in place so that patients can receive the best possible treatment at the earliest opportunity, before their situation worsens.
The national clinical lead for eating disorders has provided valuable support to health boards, services and clinicians across Wales. The extent of the challenges facing services and continued variation in service provision across Wales underlines the importance of a central resource to help guide improvements. The Welsh Government should make the position of national clinical lead for eating disorders a permanent post. And during 2021 the national clinical lead has often consulted with people that have lived experience of eating disorders to help inform her work and that of health boards. This must now be built on to ensure that the voices of patients and families are always heard in the development of services, both at the national and local levels.
Beat found that there are significant gaps in the data on eating disorders that is collated by health boards. If this continues, it will limit the ability to monitor progress and deliver accountability. An eating disorders audit is expected to be commissioned in 2022, and at present this audit is only due to cover England, but it could be extended to also cover Wales.
The Welsh Government should fund an eating disorders clinical audit as part of efforts to ensure that all health boards collect and report a standard and comprehensive set of high-quality data. I hope that we can work cross-party to achieve this motion today. Diolch.

Jenny Rathbone AC: There is much better understanding of eating disorders now than there was 50 years ago. I can recall siblings of friends of mine just desperately struggling to understand what they could do, and the medical profession didn't really know what to do beyond force-feeding people who were determined to starve themselves to death.
So, we are now much better equipped to deal with this, and there's also much less stigma attached to it. Very high profile sufferers, like Diana Spencer, the Princess of Wales, make it much more likely that young people will come forward and seek help, but we are a very long way from where we need to be. I think the 2018 review is a perfectly good summary of the problem and the steps that needed to be taken. So, it was disappointing that no formal response was given to that excellent report until September 2019, and it took a further 15 months to recruit a clinical lead for eating disorders. We hear from Beat that this individual has had a very positive impact since her arrival, and obviously that is a positive development. But there are many, many obstacles and difficulties here, which we really do need to be honest about.
One of my constituents, who developed a serious eating disorder during lockdown, was initially hospitalised on a CAMHS ward, then she was discharged because there was a COVID outbreak, and then pretty much left to her own devices, and unfortunately she was told that the nearest hospital where she could go for a specialist eating disorder service was in Wiltshire. There was nothing available in Wales. I appreciate that we were in the middle of a pandemic, but unfortunately she attempted to take her own life, and fortunately was saved by the University Hospital of Wales at the Heath, and now is a fantastic campaigner for ensuring that other people don't have to go through what she went through, so I pay full credit to her.
So, we absolutely can see from the Beat review that the disorder was given rocket boosters by the pandemic. We can see the figures that they quote: a 300 per cent rise in the number of people seeking help compared to pre pandemic, and a 50 per cent increase in referrals in at least two health boards. So, there really are far more patients presenting who need help than there are clinicians to support them.
But we have to start at the beginning. We have to have schools being much more aware of when the signs are appearing. My constituent makes really good points on this front. This really is a very complicated subject. This is the reverse side to the statement we had yesterday on the obesity strategy. How many schools are actively or passively conniving with the problem by encouraging young people to skip lunch due to a lack of time, or lack of space in the dining room to make it a pleasant experience rather than one you want to escape and go and hide somewhere else for? Obviously, that has a major impact on students' learning, as well as long-term potential problems for their relationship with food.
So, that is definitely the place where we need to start, but we also need GPs to be much more aware of what the signs are, so that they will take this seriously and not simply be pushing people from pillar to post. Because it simply isn't good enough to be going to one service and then being told, 'Oh, we've got to weigh you', and then you go to the clinical service and, 'We've got to weigh you.' People get the impression that they've got to become sicker before they can get any attention. Well, that's absolutely the reverse of the way that we need to address the health service. So, I think that person-centred approach, no wrong door, and not having to tell your story 65 times before you can get anywhere.
So, there are some very serious challenges, which I'm sure the Deputy Minister is considering, but we need to know what we are going to do to recruit more psychiatrists, more paediatricians and other medical specialists. Beat says there may be less of them than there were before the 2018 review. This means we are absolutely in the wrong place, not where we need to be. We need to have a recruitment and retention challenge that will ensure that those that we do manage to recruit, that we retain them and we don't burn them out. So, I'm very interested to hear what the Minister has to say, but this is a really serious issue, and I thank Plaid for bringing it forward.

Sioned Williams MS: We do know more about it, but we still have a very long way to go, and there are more and more, as we have heard, nuances and types of eating disorder coming to light every day. We do know, given the stats that we've heard this afternoon, that anorexia has the highest mortality rate of any mental illness, 60,000 people in Wales have an eating disorder, and we do know shockingly little, still, about this area of ill health. And major advances are needed in our understanding of what causes eating disorders in the first place, how to prevent them developing and how best to treat them.
Through research, we have come to learn of these different eating disorders, the way they take hold. Awareness of orthorexia, for example, which is an unhealthy obsession with eating pure food, is growing and developing. But, without research funding, eating disorders will continue to represent a significant public health issue, devastating lives, as we've heard, while also leading, of course, to high costs for the NHS. Research into eating disorders is not only necessary but is a prudent investment, because often chances for early intervention, as we've heard, are missed, treatments are then not always effective or properly tailored and, as a result, many patients are admitted for expensive hospital treatment, including in some cases to the specialist units in England, which takes a toll on the individual, of course, as well as the services themselves.
In 2020-21, the all-party parliamentary group on eating disorders conducted an inquiry into research funding across the UK, including Wales, and the inquiry found that, despite the prevalence and severity of eating disorders, they receive very little research funding. The total UK investment in terms of grant funding amounted to just £1.13 per person affected per year between 2009 and 2019. And between 2015 and 2019, just 1 per cent of the UK's already severely limited mental health research funding went towards research on eating disorders. This despite people with eating disorders accounting for around 9 per cent of the total number of people with a mental health condition in the UK.
The inquiry also found that a historic lack of investment has led to a vicious cycle. There are few active researchers and research centres looking at this, and therefore very little research is published. And this has helped stigmatising attitudes persist, which reinforce the small capacity of the field and its lack of funding. A funding target for the UK eating disorder research field should, as an absolute minimum, be based on parity within mental health research, and the Welsh Government should work with partners within and beyond our borders to help realise this aim.

Sioned Williams MS: There is a clear link between eating disorders and social media and the wider media. Often, apps that change the appearance of the shape and size of the body can lead to the exacerbation of eating disorders, by encouraging and normalising an unrealistic notion of what is acceptable in terms of physical appearance. There is pressure on social media influencers to edit their posts, and algorithms reward those with social media content that attracts attention through images of alleged perfection, images that feed a culture that rejects diversity and reality. This leads young people in particular to the understandable conclusion that they have to replicate the false images of perfection that they see on their accounts.
We therefore have to do more to celebrate diversity and challenge the perverse culture and its dangerous messages that can be transmitted to social media users through these images. I hope the new curriculum will provide sufficient space for ensuring that young people have an understanding of how stereotypical images of perfect bodies have developed and how they're encouraged by social media, and, in understanding this, will have the confidence to challenge this and avoid the harm that can come from this. In addition, we need to see action from the Government working with social media companies to reduce the impact of these platforms on the people of Wales in terms of triggering and intensifying eating disorders.
Eating disorders have long been considered, historically, a female illness—a prejudiced attitude that can lead to deficiencies in terms of treatment and diagnosis, as it's possible to ignore or misinterpret symptoms that may be related to an eating disorder in men or LGBTQ+ people. Indeed, one study found that about 40 per cent of men who suffer from an eating disorder are misdiagnosed, and that the majority of their symptoms are wrongly attributed to anxiety. Research also shows that individuals of different gender identities experience the impact of their eating disorders in different ways.
All of this again points to the need for a new framework that considers the individual journey of each person with an eating disorder, and that there is a need for funding, research and accountability to prevent the cause and effects of these devastating and traumatic disorders—disorders that are preventable. Thank you.

Gareth Davies AS: I'm afraid I've been quite busy with my pen scribbling out contributions that have already been made, because the speaking notes that I prepared this morning have already been covered. So, to avoid repeating what's already been said—

It's always a great idea at that point to scribble out rather than repeat what's already been said.

Gareth Davies AS: Yes, but I'll just note at this point that I think the fundamental reality of the situation is that people in everyone's constituency or region will suffer with an eating disorder, and I've got a lot of experience in my 11-year NHS career working in community mental health teams of treating people with eating disorders, and I'm fully, fully aware of all the issues that surround it. But, I'm afraid all of my contribution has already been covered, so, to avoid repeating, I'll leave it there. Diolch, Llywydd.

I commend you for it, yes. Mark Isherwood. It gives your fellow Member Mark Isherwood time to contribute now.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch, Llywydd. That's caught me out a little bit. At the risk of repeating some elements, I'll go forward. But speaking here in January, I challenged the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being over actions to ensure faster and equitable progress in improving eating disorder services across Wales. I highlighted findings in eating disorder charity Beat's 'The Welsh Eating Disorder Service Review: 3 years on' report, published that week, and called on the Welsh Government to support the report's recommendations. The Welsh Government's eating disorder service review in 2018 set out an ambitious vision on early intervention, evidence-based treatment and support for families, with eating disorder charity Beat playing a key role in the review.
But, their report published in January found that progress towards achieving that vision had varied widely across Wales, and when I asked the Deputy Minister whether the Welsh Government, in line with Beat's recommendations, would publish a new service model or framework, including timescales, to set out what they expect from health boards, and if so, when she would expect this to happen, she replied that the Welsh Government would be using Beat's report to inform their work going forward. We therefore need to know where, when and how.
As this motion states,
'improvements in eating disorder services in the last three years have been uneven, continuing the inequity documented by the review',
and
'treatment for those affected in Wales varies greatly depending on age, diagnosis and location.'
When I met Beat's national officer for Wales in early January, ahead of publication of their three-years-on report, she told me that Beat had been calling for the full implementation of the 28 eating disorder service review's recommendations since it was first published by the Welsh Government. These included the allocation of sufficient funding, workforce and staff training, accompanied by an implementation plan and timescales for when the recommendations will be fully implemented across Wales. I therefore again urge Members who genuinely care about this issue to vote in favour of our amendment calling on the Welsh Government to,
'establish targets and publish monthly statistics on waiting times for mental health treatment, including issues such as eating disorders.'
As with so much else, without this, the Welsh Government's designer fortifications will lack foundations.
It must also be emphasised that Beat's campaign theme this year, 'Worth More Than 2 Hours', is about the current lack of training on eating disorders for students studying at medical school. Their top key policy ask in Wales for this Eating Disorders Awareness Week 2022 is for eating disorders to be appropriately taught and assessed at all medical schools, and for all junior doctors to gain clinical experience during foundation training, where learning about eating disorders is generally overlooked in medical training, with severe consequences for the prognosis and safety of patients. 
When I met Beat's national officer in early January,we also discussed the need to strengthen the connection between eating disorder services and other specialist services including autism and diabetes, increased waiting times for specialist treatment, with people becoming vulnerable in the meantime, and the need for both early intervention and greater support for families. She subsequently sent me further details about avoidant/restrictive food intake disorder, or ARFID, and how it can co-occur with other conditions such as autism. ARFID is a condition characterised by the person avoiding certain foods or types of food, having restricted intake in terms of overall amount eaten, or both. Someone might be avoiding and/or restricting their intake for a number of different reasons, including sensitivity to the taste, texture, smell or appearance of certain types of food, or only being able to eat foods at a certain temperature. This can lead to sensory-based avoidance or restriction of intake. As Beat state, ARFID can be present on its own or it can co-occur with other conditions, most commonly anxiety disorders, autism and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. As Beat's 'The Welsh Eating Disorder Service Review: 3 years on' report states, the eating disorder service review explained that
'early intervention and evidence-based treatment require an integrated approach, with good communication and collaboration between services.'
In particular, it focused on improving integration between eating disorder services, primary care, weight management services, diabetes services, autism and neurodevelopmental services, mental health services and the voluntary and community sector. However, their survey of health and care professionals and volunteers found a lack of integrated, collaborative working with other health or social care services and a lack of integrated, collaborative working with schools, colleges and universities,
'restricting the ability of their teams/services to meet the current demand for eating disorder treatment.'
That was in January. If the Welsh Government is sincere, it must commit to the real action this motion calls for accordingly.

I call on the Deputy Minister to contribute to the debate—Lynne Neagle.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I'd like to thank all Members today for their contributions and for bringing forward this debate on such an important topic. There is much in this motion I agree with. I am acutely aware that improvements need to be made to eating disorder services and I am sincerely committed to driving this forward. I also welcome the spotlight that Eating Disorders Awareness Week gives to the impact that eating disorders have on individuals, their families and their friends. We all have a role to play to support and encourage people to access appropriate support.
Jenny Rathbone said that we need to be honest, and I agree. The 2018 independent review was important, but some of their recommendations were aspirational, providing a long-term vision of services. Our engagement with services since the publication of the review has demonstrated their commitment to improvement, and whilst there is universal support for the high-level aspiration within the review, there is more to do to shape the service model and approach that best fits our service in Wales, and clinical buy-in for that model is absolutely crucial. I will continue to prioritise eating disorder services in my own ministerial work, including scrutinising the improvement progress in meetings with vice-chairs. I also welcome the review by Beat and look forward to working with partners to improve the full breadth of support needed for people with eating disorders, not just NHS services.
Whilst I share the frustration about the pace of these improvements, we do need to recognise the pressure services have been under for the last 18 to 24 months. Eating disorder services have been disproportionately impacted by the pandemic, needing to focus on immediate pressures to ensure services provide a safe and appropriate response for those who need them. With unprecedented levels of demand, higher acuity and more complex patients, prioritisation based on clinical need has been more challenging for our workforce. I'd like to personally thank all of the NHS staff working in eating disorder services, who continue to do all they can to meet patient needs in this most challenging of times. I also recognisethe increased demand that has been placed on the third sector as a result of the pandemic, and the vital role the sector has played.
Despite these pressures, there is progress. I visited two eating disorder teams last week in Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, and saw the work they are doing to improve support in the community and to prevent young people being placed out of area. Whilst describing the key challenges they'd experienced throughout the pandemic, they demonstrated a child-centred and system-wide approach, using a mix of skills to deliver services—the type of service we all want to see across Wales. Our additional and recurrent investment has led to an increase in workforce numbers in specialist ED services, and we have provided additional training for staff. There has also been extensive work to engage those with lived experience and their families and friends across LHB-led eating disorder services, and I am determined that this engagement will underpin our plans for future improvement.
At a national level, we responded quickly to the increased pressure and demand that we saw at the start of the pandemic, and significantly strengthened a range of tier 0/1 support. This support provides early open access to help and advice, with specific support for eating disorders through our significant investment in the Beat helpline and their other services. Our additional investment in Beat provided over 7,000 support sessions in Wales during 2021. These are sessions not just targeted at those living with eating disorders, but also friends and family, who are so key to supporting individuals through diagnosis and treatment. We have also taken concerted action to raise awareness of and interest in eating disorders amongst medical professionals. I give way to Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much for taking an intervention, and I apologise in advance if it's a premature intervention. I can't wait until the end of your comments, for obvious reasons, because it will be too late then to ask a question. I don't disagree with anything you have said so far. I have recognised that there have been gains, and the three-year review by Beat recognised that there have been gains. Whilst I appreciate you saying that there is much you agree with in Plaid Cymru's motion today, will you be explaining what it is exactly that you're disagreeing with in the motion? Because we have heard nothing but common ground now, and no reason as yet why you would not support our motion.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you for that intervention. I am conscious of time, Rhun, but I think the key bone of contention, really, is the need for a new framework, because we know exactly where we need to get to in eating disorder services. There is clear NICE guidance that we have to ensure is met. We're also putting in place new clinical governance arrangements, and there will be a work plan below that. So, I suppose, in summary, that is where our key difference is—that we don't see the need for a separate framework, because that work is already in hand.
As I said, we've taken action to raise awareness of eating disorders, and that includes the development of clinical resources for GPs and paediatric clinicians, to increase understanding and interest in this speciality, to assist with identifying the signs, assessing eating disorders, and accessing appropriate referral pathways. Building on our previous investment, I have been clear that we must continue to prioritise eating disorder services, with the increased funding from the additional £50 million we have secured for mental health in 2022-23. This is significant additional and recurrent funding for mental health services that increases the baseline funding to support services to meet changing mental health needs as a result of COVID.
However, funding is just part of the solution. Recruitment into specialist ED services remains a challenge. We must continue to develop a sustainable workforce for mental health services in Wales. Workforce issues impact across mental health services, and that's why we've commissioned Health Education and Improvement Wales and Social Care Wales to develop a strategic mental health workforce plan for Wales. We are currently consulting on this plan, and I can't emphasise enough how important it is to engage with this consultation, including to ensure we have the right future provision to support those living with an eating disorder.
We also recognise the need to have comprehensive data, and our ongoing work to develop a mental health core data set will improve data across mental health services, including eating disorder services. Following the omicron variant, we are now at the point where we need to reset and recover mental health services, which we must remember have remained available throughout the pandemic. Of course this includes eating disorders, and my officials are already working with the NHS collaborative to reset the NHS eating disorder network's work plan to support the improvement of eating disorder services. As a matter of priority, this will include strengthening the national clinical leadership to drive this change. Without delaying the improvement work that is already under way, we want to implement an ED network model in Wales that can make the transformational improvement that we all want to see for these services.
As we emerge from COVID, we will also test the progress that has already been made against the priorities that were set for services based on the independent review. This will give us a clear picture of progress to date on where each health board is on its improvement journey. Based on this, health boards will now be asked to refresh their current plans with clear milestones to reconfigure services towards earlier intervention, to meet the NICE standards and to achieve a four-week waiting time. The NICE quality standards are evidence based and set out six quality areas. They are supported by key stakeholders and we will use these as our framework to support improvement, rather than developing a separate framework of our own. Members will also wish to note that we have been in discussions since the summer of 2021 with a key partner to schedule a formal national clinical audit for eating disorder services covering England and Wales, and I'm happy to update Members further on that in due course.
I recognise today that we have focused on NHS services, and that is only part of the transformation that we need. Eating disorders are complex and the risk factors are varied. We are working with schools on healthy eating and body image workshops through our whole-school approach, and it is so important to me that we are able to intervene in an early way and at a critical point in the development of young people. I remain absolutely committed to driving forward the change needed in our specialist eating disorder services, but we all have a role to play in the transformational system-wide changes that are needed to reduce the complex risk factors that cause eating disorders. This is not something that the NHS can or should do alone. Diolch.

Rhun ap Iorwerth to reply to the debate.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd, and thank you to the Deputy Minister for her response to the debate and thanks to everyone who's participated in this afternoon's discussion. As I've said, there is agreement on the need to strengthen services, and I'm pleased that I did have an opportunity to intervene on the Deputy Minister's comment and to ask what exactly her objection was to the proposal before us, because now we understand.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: The key bone of contention is the need for a new framework, because this is work that's already in hand. It's not us saying that we need a new framework, it is Beat; it is the leading organisation that understands where the deficiencies are in current provision for those suffering from eating disorders in Wales. I tend to listen to those who understand, in the same way as I work with and listen to the cancer charities when they're pushing for and asking for a new cancer plan. When Beat tells me, 'You know what? The frameworks that we currently have; they're not really doing it for us, we need to build something new', I think that is a clear message to us that we need to move in that direction.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: There have been some wise comments made from Labour and Conservative benches. I will frame my remaining comments around what I was told by one sufferer of an eating disorder. You will know that I've been doing work recently, speaking to young people about access to mental health services more generally. This individual had waited 12 months to start a series of support sessions for eating disorders, and I appreciated and could identify in this context with the comments made by the Member for Cardiff Central, who said that we shouldn't allow there to be a wrong door, and people shouldn't have to explain themselves time and time again as this young person had to do: 'I've just been discharged from primary mental health servicesafter waiting 12 months for it. I've only had eight to 10 sessions. I have learnt a little, but I'm still struggling and I'm alone now. If I want further care, then I have to apply again through my GP and wait a very long time again.' Those are her comments. It's not acceptable within the current frameworks that our young people, and people of all ages, feel that those are the kinds of barriers facing them. We do have to have clear models in place to provide that early intervention. She goes on: 'It is a mental health problem.' And I think of Sioned's comments in this context in terms of social media and social pressures in terms of images. 'Because of the society we live in now, behaviours around eating disorders are normalised, even complimented.' Those were the comments of this young person. But it is a mental health problem, and things do have to be taken more seriously.
When one thinks that an illness that is a burden on their lives isn't taken seriously, that's also a message for us that there may be something wrong with the frameworks that we're working within. So, in order for everyone to get the help that they need as swiftly as they need it, then we must give more attention to getting the right systems in place.
I'm asking you today to support the Plaid Cymru motion that is very specific in what it requests. We support amendment 2 too that recommends targets so we can identify the milestones as we reach them. As I said, an agreement on the need to do things better in and of itself doesn't mean that we have the road map as to how we get to that point. So, support this motion today as a statement that we are serious about moving towards the kind of provision that the population of Wales needs.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection, and therefore I defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

That will follow a short break that we will need to take now to prepare technically for that vote. So, we'll take a short break first.

Plenary was suspended at 17:32.
The Senedd reconvened at 17:35, with the Llywyddin the Chair.

8. Voting Time

That brings us to voting time. The vote this afternoon will be on the Plaid Cymru debate on eating disorders. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, no abstentions and 40 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru debate - Eating disorders. Motion without amendment: For: 12, Against: 40, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on amendment 1, and if amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, no abstentions and 26 against. And therefore the vote is tied and therefore I will need to exercise my casting vote against the amendment—[Interruption.]

Yes. I know which way, but I was expecting it to come up in front of me.

So, I exercise my casting vote against the amendment. And the result of the vote on amendment 1 is: in favour 26, no abstentions and 27 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru debate. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 26, Against: 26, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

We'll now move to amendment 2. I call for a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. The vote again was tied—26 in favour and 26 against—and therefore I exercise my casting vote against the amendment. Therefore, the final result of the vote on amendment 2 is that there were 26 in favour, no abstentions and 27 against. And therefore the amendment is not agreed. Neither the motion nor the amendments have been agreed and therefore nothing is agreed.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru debate. Amendment 2, tabled in the name of Darren Millar: For: 26, Against: 26, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

That concludes voting for this afternoon.

9. Short Debate: Sport in Newport: Supporting community sport clubs and events in the city

We will now move on to the short debate. If those of you who are leaving the Chamber could do so quietly.

Those of you who are leaving the Chamber, if you can do so quietly and quickly. I'm about to call John Griffiths to introduce his short debate. I think we're quiet enough now, John, for you to carry on. John Griffiths.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Llywydd, in 1963, almost 60 years ago, Newport Rugby Football Club entertained the All Blacks at Rodney Parade. And against the odds, Bryn Meredith's side who, up to that point, had been in indifferent form, beat a New Zealand team regarded as one of the best of its generation. Still to this day the game is talked about, and I'm sureit will be on the minds of many when they attend the Newport Rugby Football Club hall of fame dinner later this month. That history I think is indicative that Newport has a very proud sporting history and, I am sure, a very bright and positive sporting future as well.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

John Griffiths AC: The bedrock to sport in Newport, really, is the facilities and the grass-roots commitment the city enjoys. And the facilities at Newport Live are very important; they are some of the best in Wales. The swimming pool, the tennis centre, the Geraint Thomas National Velodrome of Wales and the international sports village activity as a whole, including the athletics track and the use thereof by Newport County Association Football Club in terms of the stadium.
The Geraint Thomas velodrome, Llywydd, obviously renamed after the Tour de France winner in 2018, one of our most famous Welsh sporting exports, will see the national track cycling championships from tomorrow. That velodrome is the only indoor venue of its kind across the whole of Wales, and it's where the team GB Olympians have previously trained. I'm very much looking forward to going along to spectate at the national track cycling championships this week, and hopefully meet some of the riders, as well as helping to make presentations. I think this event does highlight what a great sporting city Newport still is in the present day and how passionate the city is about sport, whether it's football, athletics, cricket, rugby, or a host of other sporting endeavours. And it's really good to have this opportunity this evening to highlight much good work that's taking place locally.
Perhaps I could start with rugby and football, Llywydd, and we have that proud history of Newport Rugby Football Club and, of course, the Dragons in terms of professional rugby. And they do a lot of very good work in the community, linking with grass-roots sporting community organisations, and taking a wide view of their remit, linking with Welsh Government campaigns, linking with Newport City Council, and a host of other voluntary organisations.
Newport County do similarly. They've done a lot of really good work with mental health, and men's mental health in particular, in recent times, being at the very forefront of professional football clubs and how they link with the health agenda around the challenge—the great challenge—of mental health that we all face at the current time. And they have a very active community arm that does much good work with schools and with grass-roots communities in Newport. County in the community is very, very important, and I'll return to that later.
Newport Cricket Club as well, Llywydd, is another headline in terms of what we have in the city, and they're based at the international sports village, another part of that great geographical location for sport in the city. Like the majority of groups and organisations, Newport Cricket Club has obviously been impacted by COVID-19 over the last two years, and because of changes at the sports village, the facilities they use for cricket sessions during the winter months were not permissible for a period of time, and that impacted on their ability to run junior and senior sessions, with players having to go elsewhere, to Cardiff and Ebbw Vale, to train. I've met with the Knight brothers, Mike and David, who are mainstays of Newport Cricket Club, to discuss these matters, and I really would like to put on record the amazing commitment that those brothers and all the volunteers around them have in terms of taking forward cricket on a voluntary basis, and making sure that it's available in Newport still for juniors, for women, for girls, for the men's senior teams, for ethnic minorities. It's a very wide-ranging offer that Newport Cricket Club have.
And key to taking forward their endeavourswould be a new indoor training facility, new indoor nets. And I know that the Deputy Minister for sport is aware of their ambitions to take forward that project and that development, and it really would enable local talent to continue to flourish and that very inclusive agenda that Newport Cricket Club has to prosper. So, I hope very much we will see Welsh Government, Sport Wales, as well as Cricket Wales and Glamorgan, who played their Second XI games at Newport, all supporting this initiative, and, of course, Newport Live itself, recognising that Newport Cricket Club is one of the most diverse and inclusive clubs, not just in Wales, but across the whole of the UK. And the importance of that indoor facility would just be so—. It would allow so much more to develop, were it to go ahead. So, I hope, Deputy Minister, you will meet with representatives of the club, including the Knight brothers, to discuss their ambitions in more detail.

John Griffiths AC: Parkrun Wales and the way that it operates in Newport is another indication of just how active and enthusiastic and energetic the local population is. And the two parkruns in Newport, one at the Riverfront and one at Tredegar House in my colleague Jayne Bryant's constituency, are really well supported, and they enable much to take place to encourage fitness and good health in Wales, for example, through the Couch to 5K programme and the links with local GP surgeries to make sure that people know that one way forward in terms of good health is to get on board with that preventative agenda and link with the parkruns and all that they enable in Newport, in our city.
Last October, I tabled a statement of opinion about the importance of this activity, and I was very pleased that it had support from Senedd Members right across the Senedd. I hope again, Deputy Minister, that Welsh Government, health boards and other organisations will continue to commit to work with Parkrun Cymru and local parkruns like those in Newport to proactively promote preventative health initiatives and just understand the importance of that and how we need to move increasingly on to that footing. I'm sure, Deputy Minister, you would be able to tell us about discussions you are having to do just that.
Of course, we mention some of the key players, some of the key organisations in terms of sport in Newport, but all of this relies on grass-roots sport and must link with grass-roots sport, and it's that host of clubs, with all the volunteers that make them possible, in football, in rugby, in cricket, in athletics, that really do show that passion for sport in Newport as a city. I know very well just how many of those organisations, just how many families, just how many young people, just how many women, ethnic minorities are involved in that endeavour and in making all of that possible.
Across Newport, County in the Community, that charitable and community arm of Newport County, deliver the Premier League Kicks sessions in some of the most deprived parts of the city. They use sport to tackle anti-social behaviour, increase female participation and provide inclusive opportunities for those who live with disability. In Ringland in Newport East, they have engaged with over 100 young people in free sessions and have been supported by the Police and Crime Commissioner for Gwent, Jeff Cuthbert. Similar to Newport Cricket Club, in the winter months, they provide those opportunities, continuing throughout the year. But I know there have been problems—problems with lack of lighting and clean facilities.
And that project that County in the Community are taking forward in Ringland has highlighted to me that, even as regeneration of our communities is ongoing, it sometimes seems that sporting facilities are not at the forefront of that, when they really need to be. I know, Deputy Minister, that we have projects in Newport to build on our sporting history to link with the new health and well-being centre in the Ringland, Park, and Newport East, a facility that would include a GP surgery, dental services, family and therapy facilities, pharmacy, midwifery services, community nurses and adult social care. As part of that development, we should take the opportunity to improve sporting facilities in the area, makingthose crucial links with health. So, I wondered, Deputy Minister, if this is something, along with the Minister for health, the health board and the city council, together with other key stakeholders, that you could ensure is explored.
Just finally from me this evening, I'd like to highlight the Newport half marathon, which is taking place on Sunday, and again does much to put sport and physical activity at the forefront of what's happening locally and in the minds of local people. It's organised, of course, by St David's Hospice Care, which is an incredibly important organisation in Newport—does so much good work for local families around end-of-life care, and through the half marathon raises an awful lot of crucial money and also enables runners to raise money for a host of other crucial charities and obviously gets lots of people getting more active and fit in Newport and beyond.
Last year, the race wasn't able to take place in its usual format and was virtual because of COVID-19, but, this Sunday, so many runners, including myself, will take part, and I very much look forward to it. The event has grown and grown over the years—it's bigger and better year after year, and it will continue to build. Deputy Minister, I know it's now a little bit late in the day to sign up, but I'm sure the organisers would be really grateful to hear you give your support to this event on Sunday. I hope that just what I've been able to outline in what is always a limited period of time does give a flavour of some of what is going on in Newport and just how keen and passionate Newport is at the grass-roots and professional level to take a full part in sport in Wales and to make sure it develops ever more strongly as we move forward. Diolch yn fawr.

Jayne Bryant AC: I'd like to thank my good friend John Griffiths for raising this today and for allowing me a minute of his time. Newport has a rich history of contributing to the sporting fabric of Wales. Our grass-roots clubs, such as the ones John has mentioned, have nurtured and supported so much talent. Even before beating the All Blacks in 1963, we had Arthur 'Monkey' Gould, who is considered to be the first superstar of Welsh and world rugby, who was in the Invincibles team in the nineteenth century, to the likes of Tony Pulis and Mike Flynn and their impact on football, Christian Malcolm who was a world-class sprinter and now a world-class coach, and Mica Moore and her achievements in the bobsleigh. Newportonians have always played their part.
More recently, I've been really encouraged to see Newport sportsmen and women use their platform and their roots to change mindsets and inspire our communities—people like Ashton Hewitt and Leon Brown of the Dragons in Wales. Ashton is currently doing so much to try and tackle racism and discrimination in rugby and sport generally, and society, and both players are proud ambassadors of the Positive Futures programme, aiming at inspiring young people to engage in positive activities and to emulate their sporting achievements. Newport has a sporting pedigree it can be proud of. So much of that is down to the commitment and support of those at community level. Long may that continue.

I call on the Deputy Minister for arts and sport to reply to the debate—Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank John for leading the debate this afternoon and for Jayne's contribution as well? I recognise John's passion for sport and leisure, and Jayne's, actually—she's a big rugby and football fan, I know—but certainly John has always been a strong champion for the various clubs and sporting facilities in his constituency, and I think he enunciated that quite eloquently this afternoon, or this evening.
I'd just like to start my response by stating that supporting our community sports clubs and events across Wales is a priority for this Government at both elite level and community level. Investing in our nation's sports facilities is also a personal commitment of mine, so that we can unlock more of our potential talent as a nation. Our investment at elite level, investing in world-class sports facilities to support our nation's sporting success on the global stage, is key to inspiring the next generation.
In Newport and the surrounding areas, I'd like to think that we can unearth this generation to emulate the likes of Olympian sprinters Christian Malcolm, who Jayne has already mentioned, and Jamie Baulch; Commonwealth gold medallist boxer Sean McGoldrick; Paralympian archer Pippa Britton, a world medallist and a key member of the Sport Wales board; Kyron Duke, a Para world silver medallist in javelin and shotput; footballer Chris Gunter, with more than 100 international caps for Wales; Paralympic gold-medal swimmer Liz Johnson; rugby players Taine Basham and Aaron Wainwright; or Cerys Hale, one of our groundbreaking women, who's recently received a Welsh international rugby contract. I could go on, but I think it's fair to say that Newport has produced its share of Welsh talent over the years, and I'm sure that that will continue.

Dawn Bowden AC: I must also add that Newport has been the training base for some outstanding athletes: Paralympians Jordan Howe, Rhys Jones and James Ledger, all trained by Christian Malcolm in the city; and many cyclists who have trained at the Geraint Thomas national velodrome, including Paralympic silver medallist James Ball. And at this point I'd like to personally wish those who've been selected to the upcoming Commonwealth Games in Birmingham the best of luck, and look forward to seeing them compete and, hopefully, bringing medals back with them.
But we must look to support and enable that next generation now, and our commitment is to invest in new and existing facilities that really improve the foundation of our community sports, and that's why, as recently as last month, I announced a further £4.5 million capital funding this year to support this commitment, bringing our total investment in 2021-22 to more than £13.2 million. Some of those investments have been made in Newport, such as providing new high-performance facilities at Parc Golf Club, enabling disabled access at Beechwood bowls club, contributing to enabling girls and women's boxing classes at St Michael's Boxing Club, and upgrading the training lights at Rogerstone rugby club, just to name a few.
And as John highlighted in his contribution, Newport Cricket Club are looking at the options for new facilities, and I know that they have been encouraged to speak to Cricket Wales and to Sport Wales to discuss this, and my officials will be more than happy to make those introductions if needed.
But, of course, we must not forget the world-class facilities that we already have in Newport, and John again has mentioned some of those, but we have the Celtic Manor, which hosted the 2010 Ryder Cup and, again, I mention the Geraint Thomas national velodrome, which, as John mentioned, this week is hosting the National Track Championships. Without these attractive and accessible facilities, we can't hope to grow participation across sports, particularly amongst under-represented groups, and this is the key to supporting our children's development and taking forward access to sport, such as investing in girls' and women's sport.
The funding we provide to Sport Wales and the national governing bodies of sport is only part of the picture, though. We've also invested in the Newport half marathon and the Newport marathon over the past few years, hosting large numbers of runners, including John, as he's already mentioned. I hear you're going to be running it again for the ninth year in a row, I think, John. So, that's quite an achievement. I don't know whether you're aiming for a Commonwealth qualifying time or something, but the best of luck to you, anyway, on Sunday. And these events, of course, bring in supporters and spectators, promoting the city as a magnificent sports venue, and contributing significantly to the local economy. This week, Newport is also hosting the Welsh snooker open, attracting some of the world's best players to the city, including Ukrainian teenager Iulian Boiko, who must be applauded for competing through this difficult personal time, and Hong Kong's Ng On-yee, the first woman to compete in the tournament.
Throughout the pandemic, over the past two years, the Welsh Government has also provided significant support to professional sport teams in Newport—the Dragons and Newport County—to protect them from the full impact of COVID restrictions through the spectator sport fund. We've supported them to offset the loss of income from supporters and enabled them to be competitive in their respective leagues. And it's, of course, good to see, as, again, John outlined, the action taken by organisations such as the Dragons and Newport County, and the work that they do to support their community.
So, looking to the future, Dirprwy Lywydd, we have already committed £24 million of capital funding to Sport Wales over the next three years and, from my perspective, that's only the starting point of our ambition, and we'll be looking to build on that initial investment, year on year, across the whole of Wales, and not just Newport, by the way. So, it's vital that we make facilities for our sport and physical activities accessible to everyone if we're going to unleash the benefits of sport for everyone in Wales, from the grass roots to elite sportspeople. Modern, accessible and sustainable facilities are crucial to encourage people back into sport or into sport.
The education estate, through our schools and colleges, also provides an important platform for our sporting facilities. Our sustainable communities for learning programme, formerly the twenty-first century schools programme, has a significant role to play in providing sports facilities. Newport local authority has benefited from such investments, which have enabled them to progress projects that include sports and community facilities. We've provided investment in the newly established Ysgol Gyfun Gwent Is Coed, the special school at Ysgol Bryn Derw, and Bassaleg School, whose facilities are all available for the wider community use. Atysgol Is Coed, funding has helped provide a full-size, under-18s, floodlit 3G sports pitch, a large main hall with a separate canteen and dining space, whilst in Bassaleg School, investment has helped provide a full-size, floodlit 3G rugby pitch and a smaller, under-16s 3G football pitch.
And, of course, the health, social and economic value of sport is widely recognised, which is why Welsh Government continues to invest in sport through the preventative power of sport. John mentioned parkruns within that context, and I absolutely agree with him on that, because the preventative power of sport also includes social prescribing, where we would liaise closely with colleagues in public health and work in collaboration to provide opportunities for sports organisations and clubs to contribute and participate in any way possible to such an important programme for government commitment.
But to return to the main plank of the debate, the commitment to grass-roots sports is, without doubt, the basic building block for our wider success as a nation on the world stage. So, the Welsh Government will continue to invest in sports facilities across Wales in a sustainable and globally responsible way to ensure equal access and to support our talented athletes and coaches wherever they live and whatever their background. We have already had positive and constructive dialogue with some of our national partners about delivering those objectives together, and I look forward to further discussions in the near future. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, all. That brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:02.

QNR

Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

Llyr Gruffydd: What is the Welsh Government doing to bring partners together to improve nutrient management in Welsh rivers?

Julie James: We are committed to improving water quality but we need an integrated catchment approach focussing on multi-sector co-operation. We are driving this work forward through the special areas of conservation rivers oversight group, better river water quality task group and nutrient management boards, which have representatives from all relevant sectors.

Laura Anne Jones: What action has the Welsh Government taken to reduce river pollution in South Wales East?

Julie James: Investment, legislative drivers and a robust regulatory framework will drive evidence-led improvements to river water quality. We are committed to improving water quality but we cannot do this alone. We are leading an integrated catchment approach, focusing on multisector co-operation and nature-based solutions.

Rhianon Passmore: What initiatives is the Welsh Government undertaking to involve the people of Islwyn in a national conversation about nature?

Julie James: We are working with Natural Resources Wales to hold a national conversation about the future of our natural environment. The aim is to collaboratively develop a shared vision that we turn into action. The people of Islwyn can participate via a survey, online workshops or volunteering for a focus group.

Russell George: How is the Welsh Government supporting communities in mid Wales following flooding events as a result of the recent storms?

Julie James: Our funding objectives and strategic priorities, set out in our national flood strategy and the programme for government, are to reduce flood risk to communities and businesses across Wales. We may consider support following flooding on a case by-case basis.

Questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language

Mark Isherwood: How is the Welsh Government supporting pupils with additional learning needs?

Jeremy Miles: The Welsh Government is committed to creating an inclusive education system that enables all learners to reach their potential. The additional learning needs system puts learners at the centre and will ensure support is properly planned and protected.

Jane Dodds: Will the Minister make a statement on the impact of the school organisation code on schools in Mid and West Wales?

Jeremy Miles: Local authorities are responsible for planning school places. When proposing significant changes to any school, local authorities and other proposers must comply with the statutory provisions of the school organisation code and must take into account a range of factors, with the prime consideration being the interests of learners.

Sioned Williams: How will the Welsh Government use the student finance system to support students and graduates during the cost-of-living crisis?

Jeremy Miles: Our priority in Wales continues to be ensuring that students have access to support that enables them to meet their day-to-day living costs. Our student support system guarantees support equivalent to the national living wage, with the highest levels of grant being targeted at those students most in need.

Janet Finch-Saunders: How is the Welsh Government supporting health and wellbeing in schools?

Jeremy Miles: The health and well-being area of learning and experience places well-being at the heart of our new curriculum. It is supported by statutory guidance for schools on developing whole-school approaches to well-being, £9 million of investment in the current year, and a commitment to fund support in future years.